Judging item builds in test games.

[thunder11]

I periodically check the safelist section waiting for a test game to be organized. While i was looking at random posts at this section my eyes run over lifedrainer[ro]'s judgement about omniknight at the previous game.

I was bothered specially for the fact you said "u didnt get mana reg early"

Let me develop this subject a little.

First of all , i believe that there are no standard items for any dota hero.While some items are very good at some heros and others at some situations.Getting radiance at terrorblade to farm your high tier items or a diffusal blade when a warlock is wrecking your team is perfect but a s&y or a vladimir's offering will always be a viable option.

An advice "you should get mana reg early" would always be recipient but that is not what i want to stand for.The thing i want to criticize is that.. EARLY MANA REG IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE for omniknight(saying it the same way you say it to players)

Let me explain you why is this.

The two viable mana reg. items for Omniknight are:

Sobi mask
Ring of basilius

I will assume that you know how sobi mask is working so u know that it is very inferior to rob for early omniknight.So we will add this item to omniknight's best early game starting items to compare it with them.

1)trees+mass branches (chicken available)
2)Ror+ branches+2 trees
3)trees+gos+circlet
4)ror+gos+branch
5)rob+2 tree

situational(when enemys harass u with normal hits.)

stout shield+trees+circlet (or instead of circlet more trees and branch)

Now with some questions i will find if rob is actually a good choice.

Why u need the mana reg? for casting purification many times.

Why u use purification? Definitely NOT for harass. Clever enemies wont give you a chance.You use it to heal your self or your allies.You can do the same By eating a tree or having a ror(or sharing it) the problem is that it is over time so you are more vulnerable to nukes.Also u can always use puri , rob just makes you use it more times.

So when i lane with early nukers or a very good early combo rob is a good choice?
NO. Dodging the nukes and repel is the best choice(very low mana cost).One or Two purifications more wont help you at a rylai+lina combo a perfectly timed repel will do the job.

I can understand this but you forgot rob gives you armor too ,not only this but it gives the reg and armor to your allies too ,when i am laning with a spellcaster isnt it the best choice?

1)You need the armor for the creep hits and the enemies who harass you with normal hits a stout shield does this work x5 and also letting you some gold for a circlet or branches. 2)Omniknight should always lane with ranged heros that harass with normal hits to use his slow at the best.If he lanes with a spell caster and they are not able to stay at lane without puri-spam , the spell caster will be always a better choice for rob , even then (at a so rare situation)after the spell caster obtaining 31 or more int he should disassemble the rob for a sobi mask.

and thats all.Now my sentence EARLY MANA REG IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE for omniknight is based on something

When i will play a test game, that is the kind of answer i would like to wait if something about my items or my playstyle is wrong.

I am looking forward to your response

PS:i dont know the guy who played omniknight nor remember his name

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

and afterall what is with this?can you conclude it into one or two sentences cuz now i am too tired to try to understand your post...also i said and i think its pretty logical that some form of mana regen is good for healers like omni necro etc...he had no clarity nor sobi or anything else...with mana regen you can afford to heal yourself and heal your ally too, while one ror will regenerate it pretty slow and a incoming nuke can blow you...not to mention that you dont know what lane he faced so you dont know what was the best choice...dont make statements or write it and look like i said smth but in fact i didnt

for e.g So when i lane with early nukers or a very good early combo rob is a good choice?
NO. Dodging the nukes and repel is the best choice(very low mana cost).One or Two purifications more wont help you at a rylai+lina combo a perfectly timed repel will do the job.

I can understand this but you forgot rob gives you armor too ,not only this but it gives the reg and armor to your allies too ,when i am laning with a spellcaster isnt it the best choice?

where you read that i forgot that or w/e?

[ss-Kenyshor]

I dont get it, that guy this get basilius or not?. Ofcourse omniknight need mana regen early game, why shouldnt him?. Almost all heroes with a damn spell needs some mana regen early game. And basilius is good for omni, if you dont plan on going arcane.


BTW: How you to intend to dodge spells? teach me that, last time i checked omniknigh didnt had void's backtrace ability.

[Fika[F]]

I didn't get the "a perfectly timed repel" part, becouse that would me you can read your oponents minds and use it 0.5sec b4 they cast.

[OMGBergrush]

First of all , i believe that there are no standard items for any dota hero

well this is completely wrong and this sentence alone defeats the point of reading your text

[devicem]

well this is completely wrong and this sentence alone defeats the point of reading your text

that makes two of us :)

[thunder11]

I'm rather frustrated that even though I supported my point of view, instead of answering by at least turning down my substantiations, you insist on saying mana reg is good for omniknight

LifeDrainer[RO]

I never claimed that you said something other than "no mana reg early with omniknight"
I made some rhetorical questions to myself so you can clearly understand my substantiations

ss-Kenyshor

First of all , Lifedrainer[RO] noted that omniknight bought arcane ring but this is another subject
In addition to by saying "dodging the spell or using repel" i thought you would understand that i do not intend to dodge a spell like Zeus thunder or lich's frost nova, but when you see Lina charging for dragon slave or Puck's orb
then its a wise decision to dodge the spell by going back , left or right.

[-eXtasY-]

Wait , you are trying to prove that Omni doesn't need early game mana regen?
Oh my go learn some dota basics instead of trying to give dota lessons to ss mods.
Bah everyone wants to look smart and invent hot watter nowadays.
First of all , i believe that there are no standard items for any dota heroOh my.. at least you said "I belive"

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

I'm rather frustrated that even though I supported my point of view, instead of answering by at least turning down my substantiations, you insist on saying mana reg is good for omniknight

LifeDrainer[RO]

I never claimed that you said something other than "no mana reg early with omniknight"


this is turning into rofl....we are insisting because a hero with low mana pool and a expesive heal really needs some mana regen...who is better than 1 ror who regenerates really slow and you cant heal a big amount of heal instantly and that may cause death...what is so hard to understand?

[thunder11]

So, you ignored my whole text and stood to a spelling mistake I made. Not only did you not respond to what I stated, but you also failed to understand the meaning of my post

although after this kind of answers I am utterly disappointed as far as safelisted are concerned,If copying the pattern you safelisted pros have labeled as "the correct one" is the price I have to pay for playing without lag/leave/noobs, then I guess I have to compromise

[Nocawy]

I believe they didn't give you the answer you expect, because your first post is unclear. It's long, with no logical structure, bad grammar and spelling mistakes... I've read it and I don't know what's your point. What is the conclusion after all?

p.s. ss games are not free of lags, noobs and leavers; it's better to say that there are less noobs and leavers than in pubs;

[tigernic]

the name of player was tigernic , i got basilicus and arcane but maibe i should get it faster , and i dont know the tidethunder will going to leave the game that is the reason i started s&y after that i tried to got merchediser reaver,
anyway the decison it was right , no comment ,i'm waiting for my next chance:tiphat:

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

i will sumarize this a bit

-you started this tread affirming that omni does not need mana regen.....which is bad statement
-also your post was a bit ilogical structurated,combined with some grammar errors and we didnt understand all
-we explained you and il state it again:its pretty logical that a hero with low mana pool and a expensive healing spell as omni heave REALLY needs some mana regen...simply to heal yourself and your allied users when they need to otherwise you will use heal 1 time and then no mana and ofcourse die/fail...that is why 1 sobi is better than 1 ror early(who only reg your hp but slowly and you can die in that time)...and arcan is a must for omni too since it grants him some aditional mana capacity,also can restore his and his team mana who is very usefull....so i really dont see YOUR problem and your way of thinking ( bad way tho) that omni doesent need mana regen @ start and/or later in game

[-eXtasY-]

I just want to add that omni is a SUPPORTER , what means that he always needs to have mana and spells to SUPPORT and help his team, not look only on himself. If you try to make a killer or something of him with 400 mana pool without regeneration, then you lack basic dota knowledge. About common , best build well yes it exist for omni also and that would be combination of arcane/meka/bottle/necro/hex/eul/hot depending of the game, but as you see its mainly the same. Anyway next time make a thread in dota-allstarts section and ask for opinions , instead of comming here with such superior attitude, especially if/when you are totally wrong

[OMGBergrush]

i tried to got merchediser reaver

quality is recognizable from the very start

[XelloS]

tigernic i didint wanted to leave game... first time dropped and second time internet crusher T.T :(( so rolf .. i am really sorry for that game..

[ss-Kenyshor]

I really fail to understand the point of this thread. I've read owner post three times all ready and it's not clear to me. What I'm saying is that...you start with "mana regen is unacceptable for omniknight", and then write 1 page in wich you try to tell us how good is ring of basilius on Omniknight. Those two things keep banging in my head, maybe I didnt get this right, so could you please explain in short words...whats the problem?.

[punjabi_child]

Well, I saw replay from team Virtus Pro or where omni had boots +2bracers at min 35 and then bought bassilus (noone else had aura, arcane etc) and he did his job well... so omni MUSTNT have so much mana reg items early
!

[ss-Wolf-X]

Well, I saw replay from team Virtus Pro or where omni had boots +2bracers at min 35 and then bought bassilus (noone else had aura, arcane etc) and he did his job well... so omni MUSTNT have so much mana reg items early
! Depends of the game :thumbUP:
But Omni is a Hero that needs mana rege at start , if not at start then at least from lvl 6-7.
-1st post- : I really dont understand what you are trying to say. (c) thunder.

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

ss is not really VP vs MYM, so basicaly you cant compare 100% those builds/actions with gaming here....+dl some other replays too and see how omni is played

[Hominghead]

Well, I saw replay from team Virtus Pro or where omni had boots +2bracers at min 35 and then bought bassilus (noone else had aura, arcane etc) and he did his job well... so omni MUSTNT have so much mana reg items early
!

wheres that noob, deserves to be banned for ever

[m1sha]

I played lately omni a lot. I must agree with thunder(we talk about first items). Never bought mana regen at start, usually i was support and bought chick+branches+1tango. I survived the lane like any other hero and healed/repeled when nedeed. Funny thing is i didnt got arcane, which was my primary item not so long ago. Eul/hex is a good item for him(my opinon).

[perito]

fffff
reading this topic was a waste of time, someone lock it forever, if you want to get mana reg get mana reg, otherwise dont get mana reg, wtf, who cares....

I would really like to see the topic owner play with omni in the test game

[Anderkent]

Tbh it depends on the lane you're playing... If you expect to heal/repel alot (f.e. you're babysitting someone / expect to kill early), start with a sobi... Otherwise start with a couple circlets and save up for void stone/energy booster fast... then go euls which gives you enough mana regen for almost whole game or arcane, which is quite usefull too.

[Uberpr0]

item builds are subjective to games imo , an example of that is linken's sphere.

There are just some games where linken'sphere is a good item for all heroes , some other's its just not worth it

[IceBird]

a pointless thread.
just go with whatever itembuild which suits the game best . hone ur judgement skills by playing a lot and then ull be able to judge the requirements of a game effectively.
and as someone said before dont compare high level leagues to this. players there effectively modify item builds to suit a game sometimes even changing core builds totally.

[[LOA]Kyree]

best build well yes it exist for omni also and that would be combination of arcane/meka/bottle/necro/hex/eul/hot depending of the game, but as you see its mainly the same.

100% agree ...especyally that omni is a suport,not a killer.Beside that,he needs early mana reg,if he is with a good allied combo on lane,for example : omni+veng,omni+sven/leo (sven,leo,veng stun,they go near stunned hero,omni heal=gg=100% kill at lvl 3).

Cyas

[basics]

I hope this thread is about u asking moderators to give reason of their though in the test or ss request threads. Which i think u can comon sense it out.Anyway if this is about that then they are doing it(giving reasons of their sentences) but they are not doing this all the time, u should understand that is quite anoying to do the same thing over and over again and i don`t know a case where a player asked "why" and the judge didn`t give a reason.

If this is about just omni and u doubting his need for mana reg than your post is bad. Mana reg in early game gives omni a lot more fexibility in your gameplay.

Being melee and having a ror won`t be afective. There are better items for omni in early game then a ror.

P.S: Next time try to summarize what your post is about if u have the impression that it is a bit confusing.

[ss-Kenyshor]

This thread is 3 months old, but thanks for reply`ing:).