BD test?

[basics]

Would u like backdoor to be allowed for a breif period of time and after to vote again for it? This is purely for ss players so if u are not pls do not post.
Regretably i didn`t do my poll "Should BD be allowed?" public... :( too bad. But i saw that about 1/3 of players agree to it, so i`m asking again to vote if there should be a breif period in ss channel when backdoor should be allowed and after this period to vote again.Maybe some players will change their minds into allowing it or maybe viceversa but still we shall know something 4 sure. I`m looking forward 4 bd to be allowed at least for this short breif period(admins/moderators decide for how long if case).
Again i`m asking u to backup your vote with some arguments. Hopefully "bd is for noobs" kind of arguments will be avoided.

Offtopic: i see that --300-- voted and i can`t see him in ss list...DON'T DO THAT !
Added user/s that vote without being ss:
Voted yes: -toXic
Voted no :Crunchy_Blade, --300--
I won`t have time this week to properly count the votes, but i will at the end of poll, IF YOU ARE NOT SS PLAYER PLS DON`T VOTE

[Mer]

I've voted yes. However IMO option to let host decide to play with BD or without BD is much better.

[OvP]geolino_]

Bd simply spoils the game i mean theres a hard game and sentinel finnaly entered in scourge`s base on a lane and start destroying... then suddenly they observe that on the lower lane bone already destroyed the tower and he is 10 sec close to the final towers... then instead of destroying that lane sentinel gotta do a full def / send some guys with BoT to deal bone...once they sent 1/2 guys to def they automaticaly have to go b or they`ll die... so scourge still has normal creeps on all lanes while sentinel has SCs down... Where`s the justice? :tiphat:
So imo No.

[basics]

Well allowing host to decide...we have 4 bot hosts :D .Leaving joke asides:
If host will decide i don`t think that everyone that plays a game in ss will take part in a bd allowed game cause some hosts will never allow it so evenually some players will vote "no" without even playing an ss bd allowed game :(
Oh and stop speaking about justice fairness, again if both sides agree to it then it`s fair. The ultimate goal is to destroy the throne and backdoor is a part of game that simply can`t be ignored . I know it`s frustrating to lose a game that way but still u should have think about their posibilities before rushing into their base.

[Mer]

@geolino this topic is not to discuss BD but to check if we want brief period or not.

@basics in such meaning 'host' meaning is creator of game(player that wrote !host). if gamename contains bd backdoor would be allowed. so everyone whould know if backdoor is allowed.

[-eXtasY-]

In totaly against it. I understand your point but i really consider it as stupid and agsinst fair play. Something like offside in football. Yes it is area of field , and someone would say "hey why i cant stand 2m of opponents goal and wait, its same as i stand anywhere else" .....but its forbidden. Why would one stupid move which doesnt require any skill destory 90 mins of effort..
Same goes in dota. Dont know for you but i had milion situations when we lose 2 sides and win , or when opposite team push and we menage to save rax on 50 hp... Few times i had same even with throne left on~100 hp.
And what would happen if we would allow bd? We would try push and some player would just walk in base and destory rax or throne with 4 hits? Ofc i could tp , and what then? Hero goes in avatar and finish it? Or naga sleeps me? Or i get desabled on any way?
And it would be same as offside, one unfair move which can be made by any noob player would destroy whole game.
So my answer is one BIG NO , and i really consider it as noobish for players who dont know how to win on other way.

[basics]

Interesting association football and dota. Anyway i think this is one of the best arguments i`ve seen around, but i`ll use Arthantos statement (Actually it IS allowed in most of asian tournaments) against yours.
You are talking about profesional football, in school yard there`s no offside right? Now we play here as pro without backdoor, but not professional games, while in tournaments the professional players play by backdoor. So football profesional use offside and our dota profesional use "bd allowed"

[-eXtasY-]

Well in school yard there are no rules so i would compare it with pub games. While in professional games all rules apply (even poor and weak leagues) and that would be ss for dota :)

[basics]

Exaclty. Our profesional tournaments are using backdoor, why shouldn`t we allow it for some time and then decide again? I think we will get closer to those games, don`t u?

Off: Too bad u can`t change your vote now :D

[-eXtasY-]

If you ask me MYM rules are one which should be considered as professional, and we have same ones in ss atm (at least about b-door)

Anyway you missed my point in comperation i used. I wanted to say that b-door and offside are very similar and one kind of cheating and thats why strict rule about offside exist everywhere except in school yard ;)

Well thats my 2 cents , one big and strict no . Lets see more opinions

[basics]

If anyone knows about the rules used in most tournaments pls post them here, it seems that they have some importance. I can`t find that mym rules, but because i`m at a cafe and the keyboard and mouse just sucks here. Can`t do the search myself cause it involves some mouse movements that for me at this time are imposible, and using only the keyboard takes too much. I simply don`t have the nerves for this.

Off: i hate to see extasy and berg voting no, i thought that they will see it as a greater challange :(.

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

same opinion as exy.....no backdoor @ 3rd tower and rax...i simply dont like it

[-eXtasY-]

If anyone knows about the rules used in most tournaments pls post them here, it seems that they have some importance. I can`t find that mym rules, but because i`m at a cafe and the keyboard and mouse just sucks here. Can`t do the search myself cause it involves some mouse movements that for me at this time are imposible, and using only the keyboard takes too much. I simply don`t have the nerves for this.

We copyed mym rules for our ss-tour and later for general ss also (rake wrote it in changes thread). You can find them in our rule book

[basics]

Not only mym rules, i`m intrested in most of tournaments rules...i want to see what is the tendency.

Off: [RO]CLAUDIU u posted and vote here as well in the other thread. i keep saying ONLY SS PLAYERS, why can`t u simply understand, i have some ideas of why u can`t and i think i`m not the only one.
This is my laast post 4 today, cya

[[RO]Claudiu]

Not only mym rules, i`m intrested in most of tournaments rules...i want to see what is the tendency.

Off: [RO]CLAUDIU u posted and vote here as well in the other thread. i keep saying ONLY SS PLAYERS, why can`t u simply understand, i have some ideas of why u can`t and i think i`m not the only one.
This is my laast post 4 today, cya

do you know what is the difference between a safelisted player and me ? a safelisted player has a good computer . i have 256 ram 15" monitor and 7fps in a game of 5v5 . i play dota since map 5.84c . i know the map insideout but it is not easy for me to make the last hit on this old pc . i play duelDotA coz i am not disadvantaged too much by the computer lag .

sorry then i will delete my posts except this one .

gl with the test .

[Deity]

CLAUDIU;764930']do you know what is the difference between a safelisted player and me ? a safelisted player has a good computer . i have 256 ram 15" monitor and 7fps in a game of 5v5 . i play dota since map 5.84c . i know the map insideout but it is not easy for me to make the last hit on this old pc . i play duelDotA coz i am not disadvantaged too much by the computer lag .

sorry then i will delete my posts except this one .

gl with the test .
Dunno why u always complain in every dota thread that u don't have a computer, go and BUY ONE is CHEAP.

@basics u made one topic result ended 22-47, that's a double number. Extasy and all other members of ss staff told you that this are the rules, they won't change 80% of ss players don't wanna change, so try to relax and play by this rules, you want BD? make priv games pub games and BD see if they will play with you after.
Ah and I voted NO.

[-eXtasY-]

Well as tay said , rules are for players , and if majority wants it we could consider the rule change. But as i can see thats not the case now....

[FLaMeSeeKeR]

You forgot to add third option !
Absolutly No !
And my answer is no !
I won't say more cuz topic is not worth ...

[Dark_Seer]

You forgot to add third option !
Absolutly No !
And my answer is no !
I won't say more cuz topic is not worth ...
I'm overwhelmed by your arguments.

On topic:
The only one *real* argument against backdoor as far was posted by Extasy, but it does not convince me. Nor would any argument referring to 'fair play'. You may buy wards, scrolls, BoTs, or just dedicate part of a team to defending (for instance, hero without good escape mechanism). Furthermore, why is using your hero potential (lets say Bone) unfair? If you name backdoor unfair, you might as well say that pushing with creeps is unfair against Lich or Luna, because creeps basically ruin their ultimates. Also, while football comparison makes some point, it's a bit misplaced. In football you can't invoke 'goal invulnerability' like in DotA. You cannot teleport, like in DotA. And this non-existing invulnerability is not connected with teleportiation, like in DotA. Last but not least, in football you cannot kill your oponents, while it's a basis in DotA. Someone is going to backdoor your base? You should have seen him coming, that's what wards are for.

I remember a signature I saw in DotA forums, or somewhere else, I'm not sure:
If you can't defend against backdoor, you don't deserve to win
It's rather harsh, but also makes one think. Why so many players are against backdooring? Maybe that guy who wrote that was right? Maybe people are just lazy, and limiting possibility of attack to 3 lanes gives them more time to react and go defending? When you push, your enemy has a lot of time to prepare, group, and in result you will get probably 5v5 battle. And here we encounter funny thing - you encourage ganks, which result in 3v1, or 4v2, or anything with good odds, and net your team kills; in the same time, you *forbid* backdoors, which are essentially the same - using surprise to achieve gain. Still, there should be some restrictions, and I find TDA rules good at this point.

Anyway, I'd agree with Mer - it would be the best to let game creator decide whether backdoors are allowed or not.

[[LOA]Kyree]

Ofc...Agree!

[basics]

Don`t get me wrong, i`m not against host deciding if bd is allowed or not. My ideea was that for a period of time bd should be allowed (based on votes) so that everyone can have some games in that manner regardless if host wants it or not. This is because i`m afraid of some players voting even thought they didn`t play a bd game at a higher lvl, so it would be just... so nasty(take for example [ro]claudiu pretty similar case). If somebody can guaranty that the only players that will post a vote and give their opinion played some bd games in ss then i shall have no problem.
Simply great "If you can't defend against backdoor, you don't deserve to win "

[-eXtasY-]

Simply great "If you can't defend against backdoor, you don't deserve to win "

The most stupid statement ever.
Yes defend against naga who will sleep you , defend against any hero in avatar , defend against strong building destoyers as tiny/lesh/silabear who will destory your low hp rax/throne in like 2 sec. You will have time to tp? You will have any chance to prevent them? NO
Thats why i say every noob can do it , and its very unfair way of winning.

[2fuckingbitch]

As i said Bd is allowed only with 2 towers not in base and that is good .
I think that is good ,and there woudnt be good to change that rules ..

[rza]

how about this.
creator of this topic isnt even playing ss games so nigga plz.


ill backdoor some1 yeah, and it wont be throne.

[Dark_Seer]

The most stupid statement ever.
Yes defend against naga who will sleep you , defend against any hero in avatar , defend against strong building destoyers as tiny/lesh/silabear who will destory your low hp rax/throne in like 2 sec. You will have time to tp? You will have any chance to prevent them? NO
Thats why i say every noob can do it , and its very unfair way of winning.
Er, am I reading this right? You know... the first and most important rule of defending against backdoor - know what your enemies are up to. Wards -> you can intercept them in forest, or wait with the ambush, or just go backdoor them more then they backdoor you.
Providing you know what to do, and how to defend - yes, you will have time to tp. And maybe you will have chance to prevent. Avatared backdoorers are quite difficult to handle, I know - I lost few games because of it. But then again, I don't react on this "bds r 4 n00bz" like, sadly, many players (just try bd in pub and you will see ;), but I'm rather thinking "heh, I could do the same and win, my bad". Simply speaking - in case of backdoor-allowed game, nobody forbids you taking such combo, you may try and win - noone will have any pretension. And if game lasts 30 minutes instead of 70 in which half is boring farming - is that really bad?
Btw, naga is actually not so good example, because it does not matter wheher she uses sleep when backdooring or when just pushing. If there is any difference, it's more powerful in team push, because it might affect more enemies + there will be creeps to help in killing rax.
Also, none of these heroes have any means of invisibility, so it makes it even easier to notice them coming.

[Fire]

Backdooring in base is imba stupid,furion ports and with his 3rd skill and auto-attack destroys rax in 20-30 seconds...do you want that or avatared troll comes and destroys them in 10?...i am for backdooring first 2 towers but towers in base and rax NO

[Dark_Seer]

Backdooring in base is imba stupid,furion ports and with his 3rd skill and auto-attack destroys rax in 20-30 seconds...do you want that or avatared troll comes and destroys them in 10?...i am for backdooring first 2 towers but towers in base and rax NO
I just love self-quoting, so:
Still, there should be some restrictions, and I find TDA rules good at this point.
Read those, then comment. You might find that teleporting to base is generally not allowed. And avatared troll... you know, wards. You can buy them in base, provide vision...? Does it ring a bell?
Finally, does anyone stop you from doing it yourself, if you find it so easy? No.

[Anderkent]

Backdooring in base is imba stupid,furion ports and with his 3rd skill and auto-attack destroys rax in 20-30 seconds...do you want that or avatared troll comes and destroys them in 10?...i am for backdooring first 2 towers but towers in base and rax NO

sorry to bust your bubble but furion cannot tp to enemy base (the hightened terrain). Try next time when u play him.
about troll, nc, its 5v1 and u cant kill him? ;]

[Uberpr0]

okay , then lets see , scourge team picks 5 illusion capable heroes

(naga , nessaj , darkseer , terrorblade , and lancer)

they just backdoor with illusions and theres nothing you can do about it because i dont think you can kill 15 illusions + whitout them hitting rax

or better yet , you see them coming all together, ya wasted 800 gold to plant wards everywhere , but what ya gonna do? siren sleeps , then they all go omfgpostal illusions kill rax in 2 secs and voilá mega creeps.

[Mer]

@uber you have raigor. you blink and ult and there's no more illusions and all heroes take heavy dmg. Also Lancer have to spawn illusions on sth.

[Kava]

u didn't know they gonna BD so u don't pick raigor or your ulti is on cd ... ^^

[Mer]

they pick illusion heroes=you pick raigor. your ulti is on cd=some of them are dead or they are low on hp.

[Dark_Seer]

okay , then lets see , scourge team picks 5 illusion capable heroes

(naga , nessaj , darkseer , terrorblade , and lancer)

they just backdoor with illusions and theres nothing you can do about it because i dont think you can kill 15 illusions + whitout them hitting rax
e.g. earthshaker... and you would be so outfarmed by ranged enemies that you probably won't last till levels high enough to backdoor.
And again, last time. If you think it's so easy, why do you resist? Go play game with backdoors, pick this team, and win, if you find it so easy. Btw, thanks for argument for backdoors - you have just increased standard pick. Noone would pick Dark Seer against capable enemies in game without backdoors, because there are always better choices.

or better yet , you see them coming all together, ya wasted 800 gold to plant wards everywhere , but what ya gonna do? siren sleeps , then they all go omfgpostal illusions kill rax in 2 secs and voilá mega creeps.
And please, I thought we are talking about ss channel. Look at any test game thread and you will see how many people got denied because they *do not* buy wards. Wards != wasted money.
And I already commented about Naga.
"You defend against push, then suddenly siren sleeps, then they all go kill rax in 2 secs and voila mega creeps". Song of the Siren is not spell that works only while backdooring. It can be used during push also, believe me.

On end note: I would like to ask anyone who is going to post in this thread to restrain from posting "uber-backdooring-teams-that-cannot-be-stopped", that's not the point. I would like to see some real arguments for or against backdoor, not such bull****.

Fake-edit: I see mer already posted Raigor, got reply, and posted again ;]
--300--: If you play game with backdoors allowed, you can't say you didn't know they would bd... and anyway, this team is full melee (except terrorblade sometimes). I can't see them farming with e.g. Viper on lane. Or Bone. Or... see?

[Uberpr0]

@uber you have raigor. you blink and ult and there's no more illusions and all heroes take heavy dmg. Also Lancer have to spawn illusions on sth.

then theyll just keep sending over illusions , or raigor will be asleep after ulti :7

[bigTomaTosouPWN]

so when u are pushing i will backdoor one rax and time my tp to get to my team same time one of u tp back to defense bd so we can go 5 on them and killed:happy1:

the thing about bd is that u must perma ward, and sometime u just not in mood :happy1:

okay , then lets see , scourge team picks 5 illusion capable heroes

(naga , nessaj , darkseer , terrorblade , and lancer)

they just backdoor with illusions and theres nothing you can do about it because i dont think you can kill 15 illusions + whitout them hitting rax

or better yet , you see them coming all together, ya wasted 800 gold to plant wards everywhere , but what ya gonna do? siren sleeps , then they all go omfgpostal illusions kill rax in 2 secs and voilá mega creeps.

lol best joke

imagine also they have 0-50 score for retartet pick)

[ANANANAN]

Well, seer got best argument, I want to see you farm with that heros vs viper/sniper or so, then, when they are pushing go bd(this may happen) but then you tp, what will you do then? You are horribly underfarmed, and vs you is overfarmed team with teampick(suport/carry/tank) with uberitems and lvl...how are you gonna stop them? Naga sleep? And what when they wake? They make triple triple triple kill and finish the game. Imagine treant, viper, sniper, rylai and magnataur or w/e pick. Simply they pawn you and push it.

[Bonzy]

Dude , bd sucks , even if you are loosing the game badly and you are outskilled you can win by bd , just give it up , bd will not be allowed.

[Anderkent]

Dude , bd sucks , even if you are loosing the game badly and you are outskilled you can win by bd , just give it up , bd will not be allowed.

Erm, pure bull****?
If you are outskilled, you cant win by bd. It is different if you are outfarmed, but outfarmed =/= outskilled.

[-eXtasY-]

We'll as i said we would conesider the rule change only if majority of ss players would ask for it. As i can see thats not the case here, so there wont be such test period.
Thanks to all who stated their opinions.