From farming to ganging , how to improve dota on SS

[Heldarion]

Soooo things start like this: Dota player starts the computer, logs into his account, opens winamp to listen to some :music:, opens Wc3, goes to SS says :tiphat: to all other SS players. He goes to play ss69 and has 25/15 cs after 7 minutes, he thinks he's so :cool: and everybody is like :thumbUP:, but then :ohmy: ****, he got ganged and banged by 3 opponents. Well no duh, nobody bought wards, nobody will buy wards and nobody wants TO buy wards either.
Soon after a teamfight ensues and he's like :help: but everyone else in his team is like :laugh: :noob: let's farm MOAR. So by the end of the game he wants to :pet: out of their teammates and just :comp: his computer.

In this topic, I will give as many ideas as I can think about (prodded to do so by ss-extasy and him by Rake, respectfully) AND to gather good replays about mass gangs and imba ward whoring from the SS players.
And while we're at it, I also suggest that SS starts making kind of "DotA lessons" games, where you show every player, what heroes are good for warding and why, and where and how to ward, where and how to gang, what heroes to gang with, what heroes to carry with, what items to make etc., etc., because at the momment, SS is full of naps that just learned to last hit and deny and that's the only thing they can do decently.

I liked the part where Rake said that we should gather replays from SS players, but to be honest, even the top players don't play that much more godly than we do, the biggest difference there is coordination, discipline and knowing hero roles (hell yeah, they don't really farm much). Why discipline? Majority of SS players tend to give farming a priority to a point where nothing else really maters - 4 teammates just died? Fock that ****, let's farm on! They even give farming a priority to ganging, buying wards (that's where things get especially fuxxored up - nobody wants to waste money for a CRAP item like wards, 200 gold for no damage, no stats, imagine that -.-).
And by the way, most of the people will whine when they get ganked that there was no miss called and often it's true. BUT, I know that most of the people wouldn't move back even after a miss was called or would simply not see a miss call and therefore just DIE to the gang. So, that's why I say discipline. I know it's hard to move away from a catapult that needs just 2 hits to die and give you gold, but you know, moving back might actually save your ass and your gold too.
Regarding hero roles, in top play, you're not gonna see Centaur stand behind his team fighthing and then gather all the frags when all is over (and see the Leshrac do the tanking in the meantime). Centaur will go in first, stun, and die for the team if needed, you won't see team die for the Centaur. Yeah, centaur is also initiator.
Coordination is an aspect that doesn't need much to be talked about, it basically means that players execute their moves in correct sequence, in order to make a successful teamfight/gank, whatever (meaning you won't let Lina stun first, if you can get an assured stun with Vengeful Spirit, and then Lina can stun safely, without the risk of missing).
__________________________________________________ _______________

Anyone is free to post a replay with good mass gangs or nice ward whoring (originality is desired, don't post quite-the-same-looking replays all over) and when you do it, please include the following info:
-when and where did the gang occur (time in the replay), if there were multiple nice gangs, go ahead and write down more times and spots, and if the all game was just ganging all over, point out the most important and decisive ones, and also the ones that were executed in a most perfect way possible.
-as for warding replays, players will just have to pay attention how you place down the wards all game long, no big philisophy

I begin with 1 replay of my ward whoring with Jakiro (we lost, but I was covering the most important spots of the map all game long).

[Wiedmolol[bool]]

Here is good game with gang 90% of time and imba wardz all over
not really much gang that i can precise except from 38-45 min were the biggest gangs...
just keep an eye on Pudge and Furion so u don't miss any gangs :)

'tho in game we were all Serbs so u wont understand **** unless you know Serbian
but doesn't really meter does it ? :laugh:

[Sigrada]

I'll add a replay of an exceptionally one-sided game with gangs all over (Not a whole lot of warding though). Moments of interest are the 7:00 gang at top, the 13:00 fight down and the 20:00 and 23:00 fights at mid.

The highlight of the game is propably the 26:30 gang on centaur at top lane with perfect execution, it really shows how much of a difference ventrilo can make when coordinating ganks.

[Mr.7error]

I have some recent examples in which ss mods denie PRO GOOD player just because his farm was, in his opinion not good enough. Alltough he did just last hit denie, good gangs, went to jungle and lured allied creeps to neutral, ganged, warded and some other pro shiat. SS is based on farming. If you can last hit/denie 1 hour non-stop with a good last hitter then go and buy some rapier and own all the other team, even tough your team got raped meenwhile, it's ok. They don't look at starting item build, at some certain things a pro will do, just farm. Any noob that practiced one day lh/denie will get in ss. So I fully support this ward thing, gangs are more important than fighting, if you gang, you get gold from kills and you dont let them farm, so you have the upper hand, also map control is a very important thing, to know when to gang and where. Rune control is also important for heroes that need bottle. If you keep going for runes you will eventually find haste or invisibility and you will kill the enemies on 1 lane. So, SSers, as Sigrada said, please stop this farming spree and start playing open-minded and watch map carefully, coordonate urself with teammates so you can own a game easily.

[BlackLagoon]

120 min farming wars rly sux since the essence of dota are gangs :pet:

[Bilis]

You got it all wrong, the essence of dota are not gangs, the essence of dota is teamplay.

[FLaMeSeeKeR]

I hate farmers , it's my personal opinion ...
If you farming whole game i'll call you n00b .

My style is get lvl 11 and seeking for victims -.-
creeping in forest@ neutral creep farmers :S

Teamplay , this is DotA ! Not farming for items ..

[Bilis]

Teamplay , this is DotA ! Not farming for items ..
yep but for some moderators if you haven't farm enough even with a hero that is not a farmer, **** the teamplay, **** the intems you bought you didn't farmed enough you are denied :)

this is the main reason ss begins to suck, pub farmers are allowed in but teamplay guys are denied

[FLaMeSeeKeR]

15 min of playing is quite enough to get some usefull items , don't you think ?

Playing whole game only to get items is boring and sensles ..
Gangs gives me more satysfaction than farming :D

I don't like players who are smart with full inventory after +50 min of game ...(Hero play alone even on patrol)

[Heldarion]

Please cut the crap what dota is about, the ones who have sense to understand it will understand it, the rest never will. Period.
Cut also the crap about what mods ought to do when getting people into SS, this is NOT the topic to discuss it, it's how we're gonna improve general gameplay of the people that are already in (banning idiots is one possibility).

Thanks for pointing out rune and bottle tactics, I completly forgot about that, it's a very important aspect.
Btw, I don't think that many people actually watch the replays (I rarely do, but since I started this topic, I'll give it my best try).

I'd like to point out some heroes that are good for ward whoring, and why so and you please help me with suggestions and constructive feedback.

Jakiro, Twin-Headed Dragon:
Why? Jakiro is a pure support hero and not a killer, he has 1 slow and 1 disable, so trying to rush a fast Hex (Guinsoo's Schyte of wyse for those who don't know what Hex is) is a pure overkill. Along with that, Jakiro is slow, has low attack speed and has low armor, which in turn makes him redundant in a teambattle after his 3 spells are cast (and that happens in like 2-3 seconds at most). Therefore Jakiro can do a decent ward whoring job with his Dual breath spell that and Macropyre which allow him to wipe out huge pushwaves in a heartbeat.
Since Jakiro also posses natural ganging abilities, taking Dual Breath&Icepath till lvl 8 is a no brainer pick really. Autofire only damages creeps and pushes them further away into enemy tower, which makes you more vulnerable to gangs and you cannot farm much.
Items suggested: Flying Courrier (with mana upgrade), 2-3 Bracers, Meka, Travels and whole lot of Observer Wards, if there are invisible heroes, also Sentry Wards. After that try Going for Eul/Guinsoo.

Shendelzare Silkwood, Vengeful spirit:
Why? Venge is not a pure dps hero (low attack speed, mediocre damage), but possesses, so to say, 2 disables. One stun, and a Swap, where your team will probably disable the unlucky fellow who got swapped. Swap is one of the most annoying spells there is and it can also swap magic imune heroes (anything with Divine Shield or BKB or stuff like that). Also, VS has a great attack animation (one of the fastest among ranged heroes), so after some time, with damage getting higher, a player can last-hit decently to get all the needed money for wards and stuff like that.
Venge is generally very weak on HP is slow hero, so again, going 2-3 Bracers (or 3-4 Wraith bands), Travels, Wards and then maybe Lothar's edge would do very fine for her (Swap and be gone).

Furion, Prophet:
Why? Now this guy is a funky one in this bunch (and of the other 2 one is female anyways, and the other one has 2 heads).
I might dare call this guy a King of Gankers. Why? First of all, one of the best spells ever to be invented for map control, Teleport. Here's your cheaper version of Boots of Travel, which has only half the cooldown that BoT have, and also costs less than half less (35 mana compared to 75 for Bot) and doesn't need a friendly non-hero, non-flying unit to teleport to. It doesn't grant you a freaking 85 movement speed, but you can go Power Treads without hesitation.
The other skill that really makes this guy a great, great ganker, is Sprout. It's a movement disable, since a target cannot really move a whole lot, can still stun you back, but he'll be trapped for 5.25 seconds among the trees and that's a length that no single disable in Dota has (the longest ones I think are Rexxar's Primal Roar lasting, Enigma's Black hole, Magnataur's Reverse Polarity all lasting 4 seconds and Mirana's arrow, hitting at max range, stunning for 5 seconds). IT IS TRUE, that you can simply use a an Ancient tango of essifation to get out of the Sprout, but if lane was properly harrased, opponents should have no tangoes left to escape the trap.
Note: for ganging the heroes with invisibility, bring with yourself a pack of Sentry wards always, sprout, ward and whack.
Furion is also sort of a natural farmer, since he can farm qutie decently with his ulti, at a 0 effort really.
Suggested items: Power treads, a Bracer or 2, Wards (duh), Hex/Orchid Malevolence. Leave DPS items to DPS heroes, you're intelligence, support and a ward whore, not a fcken hero killer. Therefore, no MKB, Desolator, Buriza or Mjollnir should be made, UNLESS your team already boasts a wide variety of disables and stuns and somehow lacks a DPS (shouldn't happen in a normal pick anyways). After that, I suggest Mekansm to boost your poor armor and further support your team.

A conclusion to what I wrote would be that somehow heroes that are generally weak at armor and/or HP, have great ganging capabilites and suck at attack speed.
The hero that could fall into this cathegory is also Sand king (sux a lot with HP and Armor, can farm decently with Caustic Finale and is a non-dps, but is a great ganker with Epicenter and Burrowstrike).

That's my 2 euro cents for now. Feel free to criticize.

[EscapeTheFate]

U forgot lina , warlock , dazzle, zeus, leshrac

[Heldarion]

FFAF, I can see your point of making those heroes look like self explanatory, but some do not really look like it. That's why I ask for explanation for Lina, Zeus and Warlock.
Lina: is a good farmer, but imo her spells are too good to wasted on farming - she's bound to rush either hex or aganim, travels and bottle. She's a freaking nuker and needs huge mana pool to stay longer in the battle. No money for wards left there then.
Zeus: lacking a disable, chain lightning is a very slow farming tool, especially considering the fact that most people will not take level 2,3 or 4 of it. zeus strives for survival (Bracers/Aganim/Bloodstone) and mana regen for nuking: Arcane Ring later maybe Hex or Euls. Blink dagger is still optional, though now only fur hunting down the leftovers (you have ulti for that, but good Zeus can really notch 1 or 2 more kills with dagger)
Warlock: wtf? Either babysit - you won't farm at all then, or rush fast Refresher, or both. In any case, you won't have money for Wards.
I agree on Leshrac and only partially on Dazzle: Leshrac can rape entire creepwave in no time at all, Dazzle simply cannot, heal is generic, but to spam it you'll sooner or later need mana regen. He has a great disable tool though, that Poison Touch and his ultimate never hurt anybody (except opposing heroes). But he cannot farm excessively.

[d_tain]

Necrolyte too imo, he has great ulti, simple dmg/heal that makes him good creep farmer.
should not be played DPS, u can play pure necrolyte with all his skills that makes u dont need much mana regen, with meka and necronomicon u can survive a lot, need BoT for maneuvers and warding rest...

Dark Seer too, definilty bad killer, but one of best supporters...farming easy, great pusher with ulti, and good hp and armor for an Int hero.
with vacum/surge combo he can esacape and provide ecape, push, provide push, and to stop lots of spells channel and confuse enemies.
great for wards, dont need much items, some mana and hp reg, rest is great bonus.

thats for me...i hope to see better play at SS....its full of 1v1 pros...

[EscapeTheFate]

Ur totally wrong. Watch some pro replays. Lina's job is always to buy wards if there is not other supporter suitable for that. Ive seen lina running with 3x bracers but warding like a whore . It just depends how u play it.
Warlock - refresher wtf? Its better to make necro, cause even if they make diffusal u still will have 2 spawns, or make a guinsoo.
And about zeus watch the last game mym vs vp from HTGN league and see how much of a ward whore can be zeus. LightofHeaven was putting wards immediately after the previous one vanished.
Its totally pointless to say - no money for wards :pet: . Its ****ing 200 gold, not 2000. EVERY hero can buy wards, its just that for some heroes its their job, for others is optional.I've seen Nerubian assasin buying wards - now what will u say about that: noob? ofc no. Buying wards with any hero is not noobish, noobish is the excuse - "I dont have money for wards". After all 200 gold is 4 creeps ffs.

[Mr.7error]

FFAF, I can see your point of making those heroes look like self explanatory, but some do not really look like it. That's why I ask for explanation for Lina, Zeus and Warlock.
Lina: is a good farmer, but imo her spells are too good to wasted on farming - she's bound to rush either hex or aganim, travels and bottle. She's a freaking nuker and needs huge mana pool to stay longer in the battle. No money for wards left there then.
Zeus: lacking a disable, chain lightning is a very slow farming tool, especially considering the fact that most people will not take level 2,3 or 4 of it. zeus strives for survival (Bracers/Aganim/Bloodstone) and mana regen for nuking: Arcane Ring later maybe Hex or Euls. Blink dagger is still optional, though now only fur hunting down the leftovers (you have ulti for that, but good Zeus can really notch 1 or 2 more kills with dagger)
Warlock: wtf? Either babysit - you won't farm at all then, or rush fast Refresher, or both. In any case, you won't have money for Wards.
I agree on Leshrac and only partially on Dazzle: Leshrac can rape entire creepwave in no time at all, Dazzle simply cannot, heal is generic, but to spam it you'll sooner or later need mana regen. He has a great disable tool though, that Poison Touch and his ultimate never hurt anybody (except opposing heroes). But he cannot farm excessively.

Wrong. Lina is a ward placer in every game she is almost, she doesnt need to rush anything so badly. She can go soulbooster, travel, dagger, bottle, travel, eul, make aghanim, finish guinsoo, probably by then game over. But she is defenately a hero that buys wards.

Zeus just needs to rush arcane, which is easily done by min 15 if u know ur way, then he will buy wards. Later you can go dagger, soul, travel, refresher and all the other ****.

Warlock is another hero who's job is to buy and place wards/courier. Dont rush refresher in pro games bcs every decent oponent will go diffusal. Just go necro and mass wards.
Same with dazzle.
Leshrac again, ward hero, same as lina.

[Heldarion]

It is only 200 gold, but a lot money is spent on Scrolls and other consumables. In this case, saying 200 gold is 4 creeps, ANY hero can be a ward whore and that's completly out of way.
Warlock: Ulti, some AOE spell from another hero (Magna/SK/Lich) they can burn 1 infernal, but the other one is gonna wreck havoc, b/c it takes 15 seconds to cooldown diffusal.

warlock and dazzle in general lack a generic aoe nuke that could made them nice farmers -> mind me, Warlock has nice attack animation, but that doesn't make him an imba farmer.
I've been thinking on Nerubian Assasin - after he finishes Dagon there's not much more to go for, so he's a good choice there.

Few minutes ago I ward whored with Viper (no one else wanted to do it t.t), NA warded on opposite team. He had a bad luck that I also was buying sentries and counter warding. Also a whole lot of gangs, too busy atm to point out the best ones :)
Replay attached.

[Heldarion]

btw FFAF, you can't entirely compare VP vs MYM with SS. That game was a whole lot different than any SS games played and MyM got owned so badly that Vigoss could Ward Whore with Earthshaker if he wanted to.
I believe VP also had Leshrac on the team that game (no?), so they had 2 good choices for whoring anyways.

Thing with SS is pvts are 99% -rd mode, and sometimes there won't be a single ward whore hero available to pick. Methinks we should maybe start moving towards -ap, to increase quality a bit, though it's gonna take some fun away.

Edit: watched your replay Sigrada, well played (Ezalor was a lol but imba), scourge could get away from majority of those ganks with proper warding, alas, nobody bought wards.

[Artanthos]

And about zeus watch the last game mym vs vp from HTGN league and see how much of a ward whore can be zeus. LightofHeaven was putting wards immediately after the previous one vanished.

If I remember well zeus was NOT buying wards. NA was. Zeus just bought chicken, and table shown wrong info because of it.

[EscapeTheFate]

The one ur talking about is the 2nd game, Im talking about the first. Anyway. Ive always supported -ap mode for ss. Cause its same like -rd. Ive seen many complain cause its noobish , and rd is more ballanced which is total nonsense. Ap is same like rd, u can pick combos etc.

And about warlock - going refresher i dont think its good, oblivion staff and perserverance doesnt give u strenght an int which lock needs at most

@ Tay it was zeus. Zeus was orange , and the wards were orange :). Cant be NA, or im going blind. Maybe Na bought once or twice but zeus did all the job

[Artanthos]

No... It was orange because it was placed by zeus's chicken. But NA bought it.

[BlackLagoon]

whats so interesting about the chicken's owner?chicken abuse?

[d_tain]

lots of players use wards just as ornament or any other miscelanius decoration...
i personaly dont have good knowledge how to use wards...
i know its good to see the map, but i dont know how to use that in my advandage...just as lots of people here...
thats the main reason i dont ward the map...

[BOo0nzY]

lots of players use wards just as ornament or any other miscelanius decoration...
i personaly dont have good knowledge how to use wards...
i know its good to see the map, but i dont know how to use that in my advandage...just as lots of people here...
thats the main reason i dont ward the map...

By using wards you can have +500/3000 gold than you would have if you would not ward. Why? When you are farming forest , enemy won't kill you 90% if you have warded key passages to entering forest , same goes for lanes. When someone from enemy team is farming woods you will easily know it if you use wards and make a kill by big chances , while ganking forest blindly can easily result in not killing anyone and maybe even getting killed. So imagine how big plus in gold and lvl can a team have by using wards. After all , why would some use mh? Because it gives the best information , the info about position of everything.

[Heldarion]

www.dota-allstars.com boasts a great many guide to warding (some are pretty old, but still usefull, as some spots on the map haven't changed yet), and if you're interested, you can find everything there.
Here's one link:
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=185119&hl=WArding

and here's another:
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=74632&hl=WArding

It strikes me quite a bit how the idea of having a legal maphack all over the map didn't dawn on anyone as a good one...wtf.

[Ludwiczek]

one question (dont answer if you not understand it)

stealing wards is allowed in ss games? (buying in enemy shop)

[Wiedmolol[bool]]

one question (dont answer if you not understand it)

stealing wards is allowed in ss games? (buying in enemy shop)

I wouldnt say thats stealing... just buying in scourge vendor :laugh: but anyway, why not ?
'tho its possible only when u are sentinel and with flying courier.

[Ludwiczek]

;748087']I wouldnt say thats stealing... just buying in scourge vendor :laugh: but anyway, why not ?
'tho its possible only when u are sentinel and with flying courier.

i ask cose i seen game which 1 team totally "outwarded" enemies ;D
and thay cant buy wards almos at all

its possible in both side, scorage bird and sentiel bird cant steal it...

[Heldarion]

why not lol, bring a crow all over to their base, and buy out their wards, gg.

[Heldarion]

;748087']I wouldnt say thats stealing... just buying in scourge vendor :laugh: but anyway, why not ?
'tho its possible only when u are sentinel and with flying courier.

you can buy it being scourge too, tested.

[Artanthos]

In my opinion any abuse with crow's immortality skill (buying wards in enemy base, stealing aegis from rosh etc.) shouldn't be allowed.

[Ludwiczek]

In my opinion any abuse with crow's immortality skill (buying wards in enemy base, stealing aegis from rosh etc.) shouldn't be allowed.


its werid and not normal but smart move so i ask :) but i no see rule against it

in normal games no one care, but in high lvl when both teams want 100 to ward map it can be disqusting ;)

[Heldarion]

In my opinion any abuse with crow's immortality skill (buying wards in enemy base, stealing aegis from rosh etc.) shouldn't be allowed.

you don't need crow invulnerability to steal wards :p just a little of micro :>

[Ludwiczek]

"This is one of the best tactics ever invented in the realm of DotA. If the enemy team consists of Ward-Core heroes such as Vengeful Spirit and Venomancer, this tactic, when used accurately, would effectively make them totally useless in their warding role, since they have no more "Observer Wards" left for their own purchase ("Observer Wards" take 6 minutes to replenish 1 set/2 charges). Simply rush your Flying Courier into the enemy base with Burst and Courier Shield on, then place it in a relatively safe position, while making sure your Flying Courier is within the range of purchase for the Chimaera Roost/Graveyard, but out of the range of enemy towers and the enemy base fountain, and that you have at least 600 gold.

positioning couriers:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/966/chimaeraroostwardstealiqn8.gif

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4626/graveyardwardstealingpq7.gif

Once your Flying Courier is correctly positioned, purchase the entire stock of "Observer Wards". Then, try to find a safe spot to reside, using your Flying Courier's ability to reach impassible high grounds until Burst and Courier Shield are ready to go. Once your Flying Courier is ready, rush your Flying Courier out of the enemy base, with Burst and Courier Shield activated, and try to run over impassible terrain so that no enemy hero can catch you.

However, the frustrated enemy team could use this tactic on your team as well. Since they are unable to stop you from Ward Stealing from their base, then your team should understand that they will be powerless to stop them from Ward Stealing from your base as well. The only way to counter this tactic is to spend 600 gold and purchase the entire stock of "Observer Wards" in your Chimaera Roost/Graveyard before the enemy team gets to it."


@Garrick_3658 from forums.dota-allstars.com

[Heldarion]

This was quite a nice convo, np np, now back to topic plx.
I've been busy of late (playing grand total of 1 dota in 2 days O.o), so I don't have any quality replays to share with ya, anybody else?

[d_tain]

i came up with another reason why i rarly buy wards (thats changed now cuz of heldarion but in my previous games)...
the thought that small number of players know how to use wards makes them bad investment...
why the hell u need wards when ur team is stuborn and still gets ganked, and dont care about ganging others...
i think u have to prove tham that good old "better items = win" is non-true-
real fun is pick and actor and play his role and be cunning...(and for that u will need wards, and some heroes without wards are almost fully disabled)
not, get a meat-ball that can carry items and win....

[-eXtasY-]

Guys dont u know that icefrog implemented protection for it? I saw it in change log version or two before. I mean u cant come close to the enemy fountain with invulnerability on crow....

[Heldarion]

bunch of today's lost games drove me to the edge of madness, especially after complety screwed up pick on the very last game played to date.
Razor, Juggernaut, Furion, Rhasta, Axe.
Considering that mode was -AP, pick almost couldn't have been worse. Complete lack of AOE spells made this game a paradise for otherwise newb-naga player Roxad, running around with nothing but S&Y and Treads and owning everyone with images, not to mention we possesed like 2 serious disables, and 2 quite conditional ones altogether, facing Magnus, Treant, Mirana, Naga and Sniper.

When are you all-so-smart-and-pro SS players gonna realize that there are some heroes that kind of permasuck in SS games (even though SS are getting all over like pubbies again, which means, that some permasuck heroes can get imba because nobody is gonna gang 'em.
Here's my personal list of permasuck heroes that shouldn't be picked by any conditions:

Juggernaut
Techies
Storm
Gondar
Visage
Mortred
Meepo
Sniper

Most of them lack any disable whatsoever, but all of them, except for techies need to be farmed like **** to make any impact on the game, which is apparently not what we want here.
So let's breakdown my team's pick again: Razor, Juggernaut, Furion, Rhasta, Axe.
Gangers: 2
Farmers: 3
Aoe spells: 5, none of them terribly effective (Bladefury, Chain lighting, Nature's wrath, Forked Lightning, Mass serpent wards, Berserker's call), to own Naga's images, it was by a rule required to have Axe die first.
Overall speed and mobility: Razor good, Juggernaut just died to every gang, Furion just died to everything when the team battle came, Rhasta's slow like fcking ****, Axe is somewhat mediocre, but it's not important as long as he's in the middle of the battle.
Out of 2 ganging heroes, 1 is slow like crap and requires a decent HP boost just to stay alive in most situations.
So I ask myself, out of 90 heroes available, what's the fcking point to pick retarded heroes like that?
If you wanna make a name for yourself as an uber pwning pro, go fock yourself and then go back to pubs, I don't wanna see anybody picking a hero with no disable that's good only after 45 minutes of farming, while the rest of his team is dying (or he's dying himself too and feeding opposition). WE DO NOT NEED PLAYERS LIKE THIS.

I for one am completly in favour of captaining system, because this would prevent some quite ridiculous picks and matchups, as apparently 4/5 people in SS don't know what a decent pick is (Treant, as the only AOE hero in the -RD situation, not being picked for 2 rounds is fcken ridiculous).

There's prolly more that I'd like to say, but I'm completly fed up with retarded picks and can't think clearly right now. I hope this wakes up some sleeping noobs.

[Ogi.]

in this thread i mostly support you held, but i just want to mention that you can`t expect 10 out of 10 games to be played seriously ;]
that particular game was started at around 01h and i by mistake typed -ap xD
so after hard day of dota playing , every1 decided to relax and play some crappy interesting heroes ; )
i picked mirana rushed arcane , and casted around 100 arrows for half an hour =] ( and had score 2 -11 or something ;D )
my point is that u shouldn`t blame people who play to enjoy or to relax, because it sucks to play 10 games with supporter cause you`r picking last , and then watch how your solo mid sniper with boots and flask autoattacks on mid and feeds their sf...i mean , no support can help there,even if i am that sf : )
or , if u rly want competitive then we should try to go for that idea about captains or w/e cause you can`t make strat, nor tactic if every1 do what they think is the best : ))

[EscapeTheFate]

I see nothing wrong with the pick. The players suck, not the pick :). And as ogi said u cant force players to take league heroes ... Its kinda boring seeing same heroes all over again. No matter what hero u take a good player knows its weaknesses and strenghts and tries somehow to compensate/use it either by being more careful or buying respective items

[Ludwiczek]

Guys dont u know that icefrog implemented protection for it? I saw it in change log version or two before. I mean u cant come close to the enemy fountain with invulnerability on crow....


sure.. but with good positioning you no need this, just pure steal... tested on 6.51
2 min ago.. :D

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

sure.. but with good positioning you no need this, just pure steal... tested on 6.51 2 min ago.. :D

nubaczek is testing item stealing with pubbers ;d

[Ludwiczek]

;751154']nubaczek is testing item stealing ;d


haha, just come drainer and try drain some skill from me ;D mayby it help you ;)

its important and nice tactics and its full legall, probably ;D

in this tread ward tactics is described and nowadys in ss games wards are important,
so all need known this tactics to use or defend against it ;)

[-eXtasY-]

Ok i learned something new :) ty ludwi

[Heldarion]

I see nothing wrong with the pick. The players suck, not the pick :). And as ogi said u cant force players to take league heroes ... Its kinda boring seeing same heroes all over again. No matter what hero u take a good player knows its weaknesses and strenghts and tries somehow to compensate/use it either by being more careful or buying respective items

yo that's my point, people aren't picking league heroes even when they're available. They don't pick them in -RD, they don't pick them in -AP either. There's always something like Invoker getting picked that pisses me off.

[ZaStarcrafter]

Rly nice thread.

I must agree that some SS players have no clue on what to play and how to play , eventhou they last hit/deny. That's why i wanted to rank players so that they will have to listen to the more experienced , forcing them to play good.

Things that happened to me on ss :
- We were playing 3 lane (3 heroes, bottom lane) , and i was the only one that was staying aggresive! (that means my 2 teammates were staying behind our creeps, when they should stay behind the enemy creeps, forcing them to move further away from the battle so they won't get xp)
- A nevermore farmed the whole damn game, they breaked our mid pushing 5v4 because he was farming on top ! He's a ss-ed player, i won't give his name, but he wasn't comming to push with us or anything else, he actualy made us loose the game !
- A tiny invested in craggy exterior ! wtf ? they had maybe 1 melle !
- A rexxar that wasn't using call of the wild because , and i quote "i have lag!"!
- On rd i saw 1st picks heroes like razor , traxex, void , pudge ...come on grow up, get the carry heroes asap ! A game with troll instead of razor is playable, but a game with razor instead of leshrac is lost !

Also stun order needs to be established ! Safest stuns 1st ! On the 3 lane i was lesh, laning with lina and davion. I asked lina to stun them , he said "why don't you or davion stun 1st ? " . I was like wtf u crazy ? He never even tried to stun them !

So for the ones that don't know the stun order , here it is (from the safest to the less safer) :
- Alchemist (this guy is banned because of his stun)
- Rashta (depends on the situation thou, the net however is a good disable that should be the 1st if possible)
- Sven/Leoric/Vengeful/Enigma/Rylai/Ogre(ogre has only 1 sec stun so care !)
- SandKing/Lion/NerubianAssasin/Tiny/Levitanah/Warlock(Levi + warlock should be 1st to stun in a team fight)
- Naga
- Tauren (cuz fissure it's much better when aimed ! )
- Magnus
- Lina
- Leshrac(after level 4 split earth he can be on the same level as lina)
- Davion(the fact that he needs to get close to his enemy makes him lower on the stun list,but if he comes from behind or invisible he will be 1st)
- Necrloyte (don't use his ult only for frag steal FFS ! )
- Centaur(like in davions case, the range of the stun makes him lower on the hierarchy. If he has blink n stuff, he's no1 :) )
- Jakiro /Mirana

Some ss-ed players play like crap, i didn't report them and stuff, because i have my bad games, everyone have their bad games. But, i will start reporting because it's just too annoying to see the work of 4 players being destroyed by one guy who, not only that he plays poor,he flames us because we criticise him. The lack of teamplay should be severly punished.

Regarding the warding part :
The wards are always buyed by the carry heroes (if leshrac is on a dominating spree, he will buy the darn wards ! ). Never the heroes that need to grow (spectre,bristle,terroblade,traxex etc ).

Should the more xperienced players start a general playing strategy guide for those who play LIKE CRAP ?

[BlackLagoon]

Also stun order needs to be established ! Safest stuns 1st ! On the 3 lane i was lesh, laning with lina and davion. I asked lina to stun them , he said "why don't you or davion stun 1st ? " . I was like wtf u crazy ? He never even tried to stun them !

man how the **** i have to explain myself it understand me ?
what in i have imba spikes and i will miss stun you dont understand ?
why the feck i have to try to stun 1st and probably waste mana when davion has 3.5 target stun that he cant miss???
also later on it was obvious the problem was in davion cuz he imba sucked after and never stunned properly...

[-eXtasY-]

Whats the problem with davions stun? Who cares if its melee? Hes a tank with imba armour and regen, so even better if they focus him so lina and lesh can finish the job..

[Heldarion]

Should the more xperienced players start a general playing strategy guide for those who play LIKE CRAP ?

I'm sorry for being pesimistic, but how many crap players are gonna read it? and moreover, how many of those will actually take the advice and put it into practice?

In my opinion the best stunning lanes are like Sven/Skeleton king/Vengeful spirit/Nerubian assasin/Alchemist & Lina/Leshrac/Sand king/Mirana and plenty more.

the stuns that can be aimed directly at heroes should always stun first, then the less reliable aoe stuns with long animation can get really effective.

btw, in -RD I often hear excuse "there weren't any stunners/tanks/whatever left" when you ask why a certain hero hasn't been picked. FINE. Let's switch on to -AP mode and see some more fcking competition.
No one will ever get the chance to say that there was no stunner left. Period.
I think -AP should have priority to -RD, because in some RD's, there are people who can't play a single drafted hero. gg

[easter_bunny]

well there will hardly be any changes no matter what we say...but, but we can make some kind of a poll about implementing "captains system" or smth like that.

[ANANANAN]

I totally agree to what Ogi said, cuz from my own experience(even tho i dont play that much w3 last days), in most ss games, i am the last(or one of them) to pick(cuz of the "balance" swaps) and most often, i see(even the players considered as better/pro/good ones/w/e) to pick something good for solo mid, e.g. sniper, razor etc, even tho there are Treant, Levi, Magna or so...and then almost always remains support/tank for me, what isnt that bad(but sometimes i would also like to go solo mid have some different type of fun), but why do you blame just the newbs/less good players and pick carry yourself? WTF? Pick tank/support each game by urself, and let sometimes them to play carry also ... and even if they are loosing at the mid, what? if hes trying, last hitting denying etc, and still loosing cuz the opponent is better in lh/deny, what then? He is playing his best, he is also improving so what? oh, you lost cuz your carry didnt overfarm oponent and also is lil underfarmed, then just flame flame, noob noob, and you wonder that he doesnt listen to you? Think about it...And dont say it isnt true, i saw it mny times...even in case that i was the one in mid(even tho i said that i am having spikes from begin, no reply from host/rmk).

And also think about the team balance etc, cuz when host say : "sry but thats my friend" and dont let you play, or swap for imba team, cuz he knows 3 out of 4 players in his team(surely all of them are the better and oh, how lucky that the 4th is also a better one). Didnt you play enought with your friend already? cant you go pub? cant you wait for another game? You are talking as if it was your last game with your friend...

P.S.: Respect for exceptions that doesn't flame/report even if you have a VERY bad game, pick wisely and they remain calm n cool, and still trying their best, that are the real players...

E: I believe you do held, but i am sure many others dont, so maybe start there....if i understood what was said before, the better players listen more to advices, so just let them read this and maybe it will make them start playing more like you want...i am sure then also the worse players will get better and play more this way...and there is still the discipline, by shouting at some1 you wont help it, just stay calm(that doesnt mean you cant talk to him, say him smthing etc.), i am sure this one you do also ;)

[Heldarion]

I usually have no problems whatsoever with picks, because I always pick something like support/ward whore ****, and the only carries I play are Nevermore and Akasha.

[ZaStarcrafter]

P.S.: Respect for exceptions that doesn't flame/report even if you have a VERY bad game, pick wisely and they remain calm n cool, and still trying their best, that are the real players...

[/COLOR][/B]

Well i tend to disagree. I mean i decided to start all bad playing players, not because a fustrated member of the ss community , but i think it's better for a more radical aproach that will make the players focus more in the games and adopt a better discipline.

Like it or not, there are many players that got vouched because they owned some pub noobs , but they aren't skilled enough, and when one of these players can actually render useless their whole team's effort. It's fustrating to loose in such a manner ! And i belive we must cleanse the channel of these guys !

So atm i will be the evil ****ty guy that will report every noobish play ! Get better, or get banned imho ! If you're lost/confused/unsure of yourself, ask the other players what to do, i don't mind ppl who ask for help or directions, but i do hate ppl that don't even bother to do that !

I don't have problems with picks myself, because i rather play support than solo laners or farming heroes !

[mYgu_29]

i think voljin's stun must be placed too, maybe between the impale and net



Here's my personal list of permasuck heroes that shouldn't be picked by any conditions:

Juggernaut
Techies
Storm
Gondar
Visage
Mortred
Meepo
Sniper

Most of them lack any disable whatsoever, but all of them, except for techies need to be farmed like **** to make any impact on the game, which is apparently not what we want here.



storm with invis and his ulti can drag 2-3 members of oposite team to your tower so you can easy kill them

[ZaStarcrafter]

Whats the problem with davions stun? Who cares if its melee? Hes a tank with imba armour and regen, so even better if they focus him so lina and lesh can finish the job..

Yes ex, but if the guy sits far behind, you can't stun him with davion cuz he's melle ! A lina stun would've been rly usefoul if it was succesfoul, since it would've allowed davion to get close enough to throw the 2nd stun .

It's a long debate, and yeah, i must agree that davion played rly bad, and so did i. But still i belive that lina should've at least tried to stun the guy. Well, debates debates, i don't blame lina/davion for the bad stunning situation, but i do blame them for beeing non-agressive !

[YoP.Shinigami]

Im among the 'lesser' players, but I dont really have a problem with 'not playing the carry'. I know my capabilities, so I play those chars that I'm familiar with, and know how to play, and otherwise tanks//support.
I understand ure point although, but as long as it is so competitive, (and it is, u dont play for fun, other in the meaning of fun in winning). So I'm quite happy that those who can play killers, do just that.
I dont want to drag down on the team, since it is so competitive, so I stick to those chars that I can play, and train the others in pubs.

[Ogi.]

So atm i will be the evil ****ty guy that will report every noobish play ! Get better, or get banned imho !

u have cool point of view , just one thing i don't like is little arrogance which can be find in your posts :( i mean , i have no idea who you are , played with and vs you few games , and i could say that in those games you didn`t show some great skill nor amazing game knowledge, nor astonishing contribute which lead to team victory...so , it`s cool that you are interested in this topic , but i would suggest you and all others that its better to use this topic to hear and learn something from more expirienced and better players instead of giving your opinions as a fact : ) therefore , don`t start that -rep ban things here cause it simply sux:( don`t get me wrong , just an opinion :)

[Rake]

Very interesting discussion I must say :)

Well...what I can say from mods side ? Since few weeks mods are judging requests mostly by teamwork.They focus on the way, players cooperate with their teammates.When they have any doubts they direct people to play test gam.There are like 2 TG every week, mostly with some ss players inside, so it's easier to judge newcomers.

The problem is that many people with relatively not bad teamwork sucks at other aspect, e.g. builds knowledge and msotly farming.I was playing some pubs lately and I met few not bad team players.But their farming...Okay okay, dota dosn't end at farming.But..without it, you're useless.No matter how good teamplayer you are, if you can not farm yourself in most of situation ( when enemies play aggrisevely, deny creeps, gang ) you won't do a thing, except for a few heroes that are not items dependant.At the other hand, when someone is good at farming he can play ss games without any fear, just not with team heroes.

It's not like that farming is more important than teamplay, but as I said, I met many players who are not bad at teamplay, but they do not even know what's last-hit.And what kind of use there will be from people, who have 10-20 cs after 30 min of game, even when they are teamplayers ?

As for already safelisted players who lack of teamwork, best would be when more experienced players teach less ones, by simply showing the example.I don't really think that captains system would work here.Making dota too competetive makes it lose th main point : fun.

[ZaStarcrafter]

u have cool point of view , just one thing i don't like is little arrogance which can be find in your posts :( i mean , i have no idea who you are , played with and vs you few games , and i could say that in those games you didn`t show some great skill nor amazing game knowledge, nor astonishing contribute which lead to team victory...so , it`s cool that you are interested in this topic , but i would suggest you and all others that its better to use this topic to hear and learn something from more expirienced and better players instead of giving your opinions as a fact : ) therefore , don`t start that -rep ban things here cause it simply sux:( don`t get me wrong , just an opinion :)

I'm not saying i'm a good player, i can nominate 30-40 ss players that are better than me. But it sux that nobody reports the bad playing ones. And when you tell them "Don't do that, it's stupid" they go on a ego spree and start bringing arguments like "You suck noob ! L2P ! FFS ! " or they just ignore the advices.

I'm a average player but i got plenty of experience playing cws and picks and item build and stuff like that . And if you will play with me you will rarley see me shine, or be godlike and stuff because i enjoy playing support heroes, and dislike playing late game heroes (with few exceptions).

Sorry about the arrogance in my posts. I didn't meant for them to be that way. But i'm just trying to get rid of some pub-level players that i find on ss ! FFS i reported myself, allthou my team said i played well ...where's the arrogance in that ?

I won't give names, but there are some players that i personaly avoid (and so do other ss-ed players) to team with, because they play so bad that the ones in their team will inevitably loose.

[ZaStarcrafter]

Making dota too competetive makes it lose th main point : fun.

Well, imho the higher the level the greater the fun ! Winning a tight, on-the-edge game makes me much more happy than a 1 way total pwnage.

If you want extreme fun dota, all players in the game could agree to pick certain heroes, or some special rules (no dissablers, ap with only late game heroes, etc etc ). But when you enter a game with the hope of a good balanced game, and mr IFeedOnSS-IPwnOnPubs is in one of the teams, completley screwing the balance, i don't even enjoy the victory :smile3: .

A win without struggle is like football without spectactors, like sex without a partner, like Kentucky without chickens, like spectre without radiance : It's fun, but you don't get the full effect.

[Ogi.]

And when you tell them "Don't do that, it's stupid" they go on a ego spree and start bringing arguments like "You suck noob ! L2P ! FFS ! " or they just ignore the advices.

now this one was cool imo =]
no , rly ,about this u have my support since this one is very true :)
thats the only thing why i would consider captain system, cause then[ if captain is good player] we wouldn`t have this cases probably, and would be maybe less argues and flaming :)
Edit]A win without struggle is like football without spectactors, like sex without a partner, like Kentucky without chickens, like spectre without radiance : It's fun, but you don't get the full effect.

xaaxa : )

[-eXtasY-]

I don't really think that captains system would work here.Making dota too competetive makes it lose th main point : fun.

Exactly, but less experienced players should listen , and give best to do useful pick and do their role.
So im for a bit less aggressive choice . No one should have right to order u what exact hero to pick , but if u take razor after nevermore or sniper , and whole team pay for that , then yes it should be punished

Anyhow we are discussing some rules changes mostly focused on that aspect, and u can expect it soon.

[d_tain]

we expect to that the rules would first be discussed with us, regular players before putting them in charge...

[bigTomaTosouPWN]

Here's my personal list of permasuck heroes that shouldn't be picked by any conditions:

Juggernaut
Techies
Storm
Gondar
Visage
Mortred
Meepo
Sniper

Most of them lack any disable whatsoever, but all of them, except for techies need to be farmed like **** to make any impact on the game, which is apparently not what we want here.

jugger can fit good in team if u have some stuner/ganger hero and even get the fb

techi imba hero, control all lane and prolongue game for those retard agi picker of ur team

gondar suka D

but visage is teh most rofl, u want more support than free ward on whole map, heal aura+meka and a slow? O_O


It's not like that farming is more important than teamplay, but as I said, I met many players who are not bad at teamplay, but they do not even know what's last-hit.And what kind of use there will be from people, who have 10-20 cs after 30 min of game, even when they are teamplayers ?

i have 22cs with vs this game yesterday and i raped them in that game by being in every single gang and countering NA with sentry

same time i give space for luna to get 1000item

my final at 40min+ of game - bracers bottle and travels, why would i need more cs?)

[ZaStarcrafter]

Becuase if you play vs a good player he will have bigger cs and he will have better items ! And he will pwn you !

[bigTomaTosouPWN]

i was playing agaisnt good player with bigger cs

but good player with bigger cs died 10more time than me

from gang)

learn gang fu u

[Heldarion]

Here's the most recent replay (upload plx.w3g) from my SS game, I played Rexxar and since I did a really IMBA job with burd&stuns, I felt like posting it here. I jungled, so in case you wanna know how to jungle this replay might a little guide for you (far from the best, it's hard to jungle from lvl 1 on with rexxar on the new map).
Just watch how I was stunning, slow with the pig, etc.

Second replay is from Dota-League on Northrend, I played Nerubian assasin, and our team had just an awesome coordination and teamplay, and I ended having beyond godlike 19-1 that way. A lot of gangs, nice teamfights and just imba, imba game.

[Heldarion]

Here's another replay from me playing Dota-League, this time having Rexxar and abusing Hawk like there's no tomorrow.

I'd recommend keeping an eye how we ganged in the middle game, when we were picking opposite heroes out one by one and practically steamrolled to victory because of that period.

[Heldarion]

Dota-League game

Situation didn't look very promising, but with extreme ganking, we managed to pull off a victory, and our early-game heroes owned their late-gamer heroes :)

[Heldarion]

An interesting video that shows a really cool and good way of jungling with rexxar (MYM|Merlini):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AKbYAdRCQo

[VamoS_GringO]

An interesting video that shows a really cool and good way of jungling with rexxar (MYM|Merlini):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AKbYAdRCQo
Nice video,but i think Bonzy posted this somewhere a long time ago.I´m working on a interesting venomancer jungling guide :).works really well for me,my record is a 18 min relic.all you need is a sobi mask and 4-6 tangos (and some skill,ofc).

[Heldarion]

To me Rexxar is the most amazing jungler because he's crap without axes and a pig, but axes make him from totally no-jungle hero into an uber jungle hero, capabable of pulling 3 camps at once and stacking all those camps at the same time, and then killing them for buttload of gold. Just-freakin-awesome.

[Heldarion]

once again, as some of us know, rexxar is amazing jungler, and there's been a lot of questions how to jungle now that creepspawn spots have changed so much.
The goal of Rexxar's jungling is to hit level 6 asap and become a gankwhore after it.
I've been practicing that sentinel jungling **** with him quite a lot, and here's a replay which shows how to hit lvl 6 in 9 minutes and also have a moderate amount of gold on your disposal.

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

maybe i miss the point but what is needed to post those replays from wtf dota league/tournament w/e...?

[rza]

I would say....


read the topic?! "From farming to ganging , how to improve dota on SS"

[gods][neca_]

I've seen before Rexxar as jungler,on tour i was in our country,guy bought bottle and was doing same thing you did(axes to pull more then 1 camp)He did good at beggining but his team sucked a lot so I guess that tact failed for them.

[Crunchy_Blade]

Brood is No. 1 junger... but still there are few more heroes who are great junglers as Rexx , Undying , Furion ,axe and centa.. my oppinion

[Tito]

Farming sux, guys. Its stupid go get BoT, ask your team supporters to get a lot of wards and farm whole the game. At the 50th minute, join the battle with xxxx expensive items and win alone. Ye tay, kai, its really stupid, in that way, dota loses its sence.

[Bilis]

Farming sux, guys. Its stupid go get BoT, ask your team supporters to get a lot of wards and farm whole the game.
this is the pro version of dota, the other way it's the noob way.

[ss-Kenyshor]

Well even that most of the time I dont like the way Tay plays, I cant say anything to him. He surely plays to WIN, in his mind(and logically if you want), that means "farm more than the others". And maybe its our fault that we/you let him farm so much, so why blame him or the other good players with imba farming skills?.

[gods][neca_]

Exactly that keny,its not his fault that others dont know to last hit/deny,and as you say he surelly plays for WIN cause why would you play dota to lose all the time instead of winning most of times like tAy :D gl

[VamoS_GringO]

Well even that most of the time I dont like the way Tay plays, I cant say anything to him. He surely plays to WIN, in his mind(and logically if you want), that means "farm more than the others". And maybe its our fault that we/you let him farm so much, so why blame him or the other good players with imba farming skills?.

I hate to farm all game long,its really pointless when you're playing against skilled opponents who doesnt allow you to farm even 2 minutes.It's really their fault when they let the carry farm the whole game so he has imba items in 50 min.I played some cws on ggc vs high skilled clans,the only time you can see their or our carry farm is when the other 4 are ganking (when there is no need for your help to gank),after a teamfight or a push and when were defending our towers/base from some creep waves.The key is just some good teamwork,in most games your carry doesnt need that much farming since you let em get all kills and towers so he will have some impressive items w/o farming whole game.There are a few exceptions (item dependend heroes)where you just need to farm a lot,then its on your team to proctect you through that period of farming.

[IceBird]

Lil_GringO;778018']I hate to farm all game long,its really pointless when you're playing against skilled opponents who doesnt allow you to farm even 2 minutes.It's really their fault when they let the carry farm the whole game so he has imba items in 50 min.I played some cws on ggc vs high skilled clans,the only time you can see their or our carry farm is when the other 4 are ganking (when there is no need for your help to gank),after a teamfight or a push and when were defending our towers/base from some creep waves.The key is just some good teamwork,in most games your carry doesnt need that much farming since you let em get all kills and towers so he will have some impressive items w/o farming whole game.There are a few exceptions (item dependend heroes)where you just need to farm a lot,then its on your team to proctect you through that period of farming.

yes very true. we just played cw against clan AIP . we had an imba farmer in our team and he took troll to have a good late game carry but we lost ultimately . they ganked wards everywhere . ofc we also did but our carry couldnt farm and hence we lost.

[Artanthos]

No wonder you lost with troll against decent enemies...

[Tito]

Mmm, farm abilities? Even my sister can farm ALONE on a side with hero lvl 18.. Yeah, tay is a great farmer into the begining of the game, but later the abilities doesn't really matters, with example for lvl 16 trax only with lothar/bot, you can attack the creep when he's at half hp and still kill him. Also, when you have wards, you can see the incoming gangs, and ww/tp before they come, so they're ****ed up. After some times trying the ganging heroes will just quit of ganging him, there is no points 4 heroes just walking across the map to gang ONE SINGLE hero who can always ww/tp when he sees them comming.. I have nothing against tay, he looks like a good guy, but the way of playing is anoyying and stupid, at least for me. I mean... where is the point of killing creeps whole game, get imba items and destroy opponent's base.. You need opponents for that? I believe you can do it alone on the map.

[[gdl]shadow]

Mmm, farm abilities? Even my sister can farm ALONE on a side with hero lvl 18.. Yeah, tay is a great farmer into the begining of the game, but later the abilities doesn't really matters, with example for lvl 16 trax only with lothar/bot, you can attack the creep when he's at half hp and still kill him. Also, when you have wards, you can see the incoming gangs, and ww/tp before they come, so they're ****ed up. After some times trying the ganging heroes will just quit of ganging him, there is no points 4 heroes just walking across the map to gang ONE SINGLE hero who can always ww/tp when he sees them comming.. I have nothing against tay, he looks like a good guy, but the way of playing is anoyying and stupid, at least for me. I mean... where is the point of killing creeps whole game, get imba items and destroy opponent's base.. You need opponents for that? I believe you can do it alone on the map.
totaly wrong......
1-st tay is not just a farmer he is a good team player good lane controler+imba farming skills....he has his own style of play and i hate farmers but i always thought that they suck but he is exception :)
2-nd u go to gang at lvl 5-6-7 so ppl at that lvl usualy dont have ww or bot or wards all over the map to escape from gang......
anyway as i posted many times good gang team>>all.

[Tito]

1-st tay is not just a farmer he is a good team player good lane controler+imba farming skills....he has his own style of play and i hate farmers but i always thought that they suck but he is exception
Dude, I am not offending tay, I said he's a great player, you got me totaly wrong.
2-nd u go to gang at lvl 5-6-7 so ppl at that lvl usualy dont have ww or bot or wards all over the map to escape from gang......
Its useless against good wardening, he can see you comming from faaar away and he can stay next to the tower when some of his team mates can tp, if you itend of stopping him get BoT or lothar, you should spend whole game farming, because as mentioned before, tay is a great farmer, so he doesn't need a lot of time to do it.

[ANANANAN]

shadow;778200']
2-nd u go to gang at lvl 5-6-7 so ppl at that lvl usualy dont have ww or bot or wards all over the map to escape from gang......

Well, i disagree, ~lvl 6 you can already have flying courier with mana and some wards for not being ganked. Also you can have tp, its not usual, but if you expect smthing similar, you may have 1. If there is will, there are also wards :)

[[gdl]shadow]

Well, i disagree, ~lvl 6 you can already have flying courier with mana and some wards for not being ganked. Also you can have tp, its not usual, but if you expect smthing similar, you may have 1. If there is will, there are also wards :)

ahm and whenever u play all ur team mates dead score is zero?
well maybe ur right if u play VS Ai and they dont plant observers...destroy ur observers etc.....i dont want to go in details ...there is always way to gang some1....

@tito tower doesnt save u from getting killed in many cases...so what if ur m8 TP on the tower if ur oponent has spells for fast kiling...

anyway enough with the C*rap cause it all depends on game play

[d_tain]

whats the big thing anyway, did u ever see a replay where a mod or admin buys chicken???? i mean if there are 5 mods in 1 team, one will buy ofcourse but if there is 4 mods and 1 regular person, that one regular person will have to buy chicken or get banned...
proofs are 1000 replay u have stored in ur ladder database...

[ANANANAN]

whats the big thing anyway, did u ever see a replay where a mod or admin buys chicken???? i mean if there are 5 mods in 1 team, one will buy ofcourse but if there is 4 mods and 1 regular person, that one regular person will have to buy chicken or get banned...
proofs are 1000 replay u have stored in ur ladder database...
.disagreed :)

[Mr.7error]

whats the big thing anyway, did u ever see a replay where a mod or admin buys chicken???? i mean if there are 5 mods in 1 team, one will buy ofcourse but if there is 4 mods and 1 regular person, that one regular person will have to buy chicken or get banned...
proofs are 1000 replay u have stored in ur ladder database...

Stupidest thing I've heard lately ?

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

whats the big thing anyway, did u ever see a replay where a mod or admin buys chicken???? i mean if there are 5 mods in 1 team, one will buy ofcourse but if there is 4 mods and 1 regular person, that one regular person will have to buy chicken or get banned...
proofs are 1000 replay u have stored in ur ladder database...

if i post 3 replays from my last 5-6 ss games played where i bought chicken,upgraded it and bought wards...i ban you?

[[gdl]shadow]

;778698']if i post 3 replays from my last 5-6 ss games played where i bought chicken,upgraded it and bought wards...i ban you?
sweety the problem is that D_tain is already banned :beer: