-rep for Soares

[Mer]

1. disc
2. our team need dps hero and he made SnY (treads as well) on razor (and didn't take frenzy at all).

[Nocawy]

Isn't SnY a good item on Razor?

[EscapeTheFate]

Isn't SnY a good item on Razor?

s&y - 16 agility + 16 dmg = 32 dmg per hit added for 5k

radiance - 60 dmg + 35 dmg aura that stacks with ur ulti and u become somthing like a mini pudge :) = 95 dmg per hit added for 5.3k

Or Mjolnir but its a bit more expensive.

now do u really think is it good s&y for razor ? And why do u need 16 % Ias from yasha when u have a skill that gives u 100 %. sange and yahsa is a pub item not for serious games :)

[D3c3bal]

sange and yahsa is a pub item not for serious games
false, ars-art made S&Y on PoTM in Prime Defending 9 playoffs, that was no pub game and ars-art is no puber

Sange and Yasha is a good intem but not on all heroes.

[Killer Bee Bop]

SnY is good on Razor, but there are better orbs, anyway, in no way is grounds for -rep imho.

[Artanthos]

false, ars-art made S&Y on PoTM in Prime Defending 9 playoffs, that was no pub game and ars-art is no puber

Sange and Yasha is a good intem but not on all heroes.

zZz so what? smile made it, because VP already won this game, or played vs some lower skilled team. For example, Vigoss made dagon for pudge in MyM Prime Nations 1 FINAL. Does it mean, that dagon is good for him? -.-

[D3c3bal]

dagon on pudge? hmmmm :D

you can't say that S&Y is pub intem, S&Y is a good intem that you can easily build, that is the best thing about S&Y you need to raise only 1000 max for a part, not >3000 gold for the mostly big intems

[Mr.7error]

There are some, few heroes that can really benefit from those boosts sny offers. Example naix is good with it, razor too in some cases, gondar, etc. But if u can raise some decent gold at a fast rate, save gold for some expensive shiat. :)

[Mer]

I would also remind that our team have disables better than sny(hex,shakle,stun,omnislow,alch stun)... we just need DPS.

@Terror
sny is bad on naix becouse main and open wounds don't work well together.

@EscapeTheFate
you missed Mealstorm anf MKB
Mealstorm - 3360 gold
+6 agi +25 dmg and 20% for 150 chain lightning(3 jumps)
so it's like 61 dmg per hit against single target.

Monkey King Bar - 5400 gold
+75 dmg +15%IAS 30%for 100 dmg and minibash
105 dmg per hit and minibash that mean NO MORE F... BLACK HOLE(till enigma get bkb;p)

also IMO taking frenzy when it become half useless is a bit waste of skill...
our Soares didn't take Frenzy till 17 lvl(when he left razor have 17 lvl and haven't frenzy).

[IceBird]

yes indeed frenzy is very very important that extra ms combined with a bot would give u all the creep waves u need to farm a quick radiance
and SnY on troll also imba 7rror :)

[OMGBergrush]

105 dmg per hit and minibash that mean NO MORE F... BLACK HOLE(till enigma get bkb;p)

explain

[2fuckingbitch]

For me S&Y is good item with razor.. and for some other heroes..
U are sure that Ice Frog made S&y only for pubs games like some ppl said here ?
I dont think so...
And some ppl have strange item builds for me that is ok ...
It is stupid to post because of strange item build for u -rep request..

[IceBird]

For me S&Y is good item with razor.. and for some other heroes..
U are sure that Ice Frog made S&y only for pubs games like some ppl said here ?
I dont think so...
And some ppl have strange item builds for me that is ok ...
It is stupid to post because of strange item build for u -rep request..

yes indeed i agree SnY is no pub item although it is abused by pub players u just cant discard such a nice item which will work wonders for some heroes although i only of only troll on whom SnY is perfect
hmm well it looks like a -rep war to me between ss members ......
just as i said before think twice or thrice before posting -rep
post only if absolutely necessary and not for trivial matters

[d_tain]

damn people cant u read...
-rep for Soares
1. disc
2. our team need dps hero and he made SnY (treads as well) on razor (and didn't take frenzy at all).
he was disconected, unintentional leaving...

second, he didnt do perfect build for the game, but its not like made Refresher....so this has nothing to do with -rep...

[rueha]

Item build shouldn't be a reason for -rep imo if he know what he do. Soares play very good and maybe it was a reason for s&y and stats (some extra hp or smth). Sad it was 4th lose in a row 4v5 for these day :smile3:
PS. you can't compare it w other items only by dmg per hit, it also gives attack speed etc. for example.

[Mer]

@bergrush
Black Hole is channeling and MKB minibash stops channelings. Ranged bash(minibash is form of bash ofc) is magical so bkb stops it. So it can't stop enigma black hole.

@d_tain you still miss main point... I ask for -rep not becouse SnY is overall bad on razor(treads as well), but that he compleatly doesn't fit his role in team. Team need DPS and he made weak disable(maim=slow) and didn't take main dps skill - frenzy. If he want play alone he should go pub.

@compunut91
hmm well it looks like a -rep war to me between ss members ......
I haven't been reported by anyone yet. So I will rather call it assault or attack or invasion than war.

[pLavsHa]

SS.. Guys.. My bro just shown this to me ? Is this what SS is now ? Whos gonna be first one to report another ? If u act like that u ain't nothing better than cocksuckers..

I'm not defending my bro, but reporting someone for making SnY to Razor ? He didn't made Soul Booster for **** sake.. Rofl.. You guys are funny, and this supposed ti be "pro channel, with good team spirit and all" ROFL

Go ahead, ruin whats left of it... I know ppl who quited just becase of ppl acting like that... Whos gonna be next one to leave ? .. I feel happy I left this, I really do...

:)

[OMGBergrush]

@bergrush
Black Hole is channeling and MKB minibash stops channelings. Ranged bash(minibash is form of bash ofc) is magical so bkb stops it. So it can't stop enigma black hole.

the fact that its ranged has nothing to do with it being magic. mkb bash is the same as basher except it deals more damage and less stun time. the only magic "bash" is rifleman headshot

[Mer]

well... I base my knowledge on what I've read on Dota-Allstars forum.
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=34345

if you think that I'm wrong mesg me on bnet and we go test if ranged hero can bash someone with magic immunity.

[Killer Bee Bop]

I also take Frenzy on Razor AND Viper at levels 17-20. IAS can NEVER (unless it is over the 400 IAS cap, zz) become useless, and is actually less useful early on because:

1) You have less damage so the overall DPS improvement is mediocre.

2) You have pathetic (especially if you took Frenzy in place of Stat.s) HP and less armor to endure nukes/physical attacks with the increased damage intake which is the penalty of your active Frenzy.

@compu
We are talking about Frenzy, not Unholy Fervor. Frenzy doesn't add ms (so BoT does not boost it in any way), it adds IAS with increased damage intake. =.=

Hmm, why is Dagon on Pudge a sin? What is Pudge's role? A ganker/disabler. Is he item-dependent? No. Pudge only needs ms and regen, lots of regen. Does the Dagon help his ganking role? Yes it does. Would I buy Dagon on a Pudge? Not really. But the thing is, Pudge doesn't need items, unless his role changes to a tanker/carry, which wouldn't work so well. So really just about anything goes for him as long as he can move fast enough to Rot enemies and has enough regen/spell resistance to keep his Rot damage-to-self in check.

Mer is correct about the bash mechanics. If you are ranged the stun component is magical but the damage part is physical, the exact opposite is true if you are melee.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So to sum up my take on the item build controversy:

Items are there to help a hero fulfill his role. It doesn't matter what items you buy as long as they contribute in some way or another to your role in the SPECIFIC GAME you played, as it happens that some heroes' roles change slightly from one game to another. But there still remains some extreme cases like Refresher or Aghanim's on Razor or more than one orb effect or Buriza on PA or 6 Mekansms blah blah blah kthxbai.

[Matsumoto]

SaY on Razor is Imba When you buy it fast like Soares did, hi is very good player, i watch replay, he was greedy at the start, but he play for team, and play the Best in Team, and


one question why host kick him?
this is not reason for kick, i think man who post this funny -rep take -rep instand of soares :cool:

have a nice day :clap:

[Mer]

what was good for team in that sny? we already had stuns slows disables. Only thing our team really lack of was DPS and SnY doesn't contribute to DPS in any way(compared to other reasonable items).

@KBB I've write half useless not totally useless. if you have 200 IAS another 100 is only 25% dmg boost. if you have 50 IAS 100IAS is 66% dmg boost. that's my point.

if Soares turn treads to strength and buy bracers instead of wraith bands he would have same hp as with wraith band stats and sny and he would have +100% IAS from frenzy that would be 60% dps boost and that with good dps item like mealstorm or MKB give our team what we need - high DPS hero.

@matsumoto Are you Soares in disguise? Or what other sort of coward you are? safelist yourself or don't hide under fake accounts or save your useless sentences to yourself.

Anyone know why Soares is so scared to answer me directly if I'm wrong?

[Matsumoto]

Frenzy for Razor ?
I take frenzy when i Dont have statc, i am noob
I just watch replay :)
Every time you play vs Razor hi is First target you know that, hi build SaY to stay alive and give them damage , because hi farm realy good and kill 4 heroes in one counter push :)

I am not Soares god damed

GG was this one :)

why rep for good games anyway ?

[Nektor]

You can't -rep someone for not buying exactly the items YOU want them to buy. Now you go into theorycraft comparing items that can't be compared (because whatever you say of sny vs rad or whatever else, anyone can just say that sny is much easier to get and you get benefits assembling it). Not to mention that the two page discussion about items isn't something that SS players should play in their head in the middle of a game, and make a decision in a couple of minutes that takes us 2 pages to argue about. Neither you nor the rest of SS is PRO in the sense that we play 8+ h/day for sponsors and money. So just chill, and enjoy life. Think you got a bit carried away with all the -rep requests, and are just trying to find any mistake someone makes. There are no perfect builds for heroes, because different people play same heroes differently, and estimating exactly what the team needs in a game is arguable.

[[DjoxY]]

I am too bored to watch whole replay,but one thing i am sure.He is not noob,and there is no reason for -reps,if only reason is that just because you don't like his item build.Also i think that all who post silly -reps request should get perma fu*king ban...gl&hf

[Heldarion]

the fact that its ranged has nothing to do with it being magic. mkb bash is the same as basher except it deals more damage and less stun time. the only magic "bash" is rifleman headshot

the ministun or stun itself is no magic at all. Only the damage that comes along with the stun is magic, but the MKB stun itself is not magic, so bkb doesn't block it and BLOW ME.

[Mer]

@backstabber noone makes you to read threads like this.

@Nector
our team: Dragon Knight(stun+(late game)slow), Alchemist(stun), omniknight(slow), Rhasta(shakle,hex)
Do you really think that our team need from razor? a silly maim? tanking capability? or maybe DPS? I didn't write that he should make exact items that are best IMO. I just whine at his skill/item build that compleatly doesn't fit DPS role.

Can you write sth on higher lvl than: "I'm(he's) pro and SnY is imba", "He's pro and you suck" and similar. Show me that what I've written is false. Show errors in my deduction. If it's hard I will try to explain it again.

facts:
team: DK,alchemist,rhasta,omni,razor
1. our team need high dps from razor.
2. we have a lot of single-taget disables
3. SnY is minor disable and isn't dps item
4. razor is great dps hero due to steroid spell
5. razor make SnY
conclusions:
5. our team haven't any dps hero (and that was enough to makes us lose)
6. razor waste a lot of money becouse our team don't need extra minor disable(neglect adventage of solo lane and decent farming).

There's no perfect builds but some of build are clearly publike. Ans SnY on razor is one of them. Well can't even imagine when SnY on razor would be good build in safelisted game. (help me to imagine that if you can).

And...
Is Nektor another fake account? Or it's some pubber that didn't safelisted himself? (Nektor is not safelisted and wasn't any request from this forum account).

[meow_meow]

i feel i have a need to reply as i like razor and use it many times not only in pub but as well as
good inhouse games.I agree with Mer as Razor need dmg items more to less effective items like s&y.
Firstly not only with the line up
he mentioned but in any line up, razor really can deal massive damage with
the right items.Yes, there's no "perfect items" but radiance and butterfly
definitely are up there.

In pub, what items u buy really doesnt matter as the level of playing is really
low compare to good private games whereby the items u chose really depends
the game's outcome.I always argue that dps heroes need at least some decent hp but not to some high extent.
In this case, u can purchase bracers,
or like mer said str threads or even other examples orge > bkb or even
vitality booster > manta my fav =). This items are just to boost ur hp and u dont have to finish the build.
If u are smart, u can just buy one sange,
rush expensive items and finish ur s&y later.I am not here to give some strategy guide on razor
or something but that's just my opinion.

As for frenzy, there is really no need on early stages unless u have really
reliable teamates =) like in clan war whereby u must play ur role nicely
example dps > go dps.In ss games, u dont know many players and their playing style
so getting decent hp on dps heroes is just to play safe so u can
build on ur items.No idiots would save so much money,die much and cant farm that particular item.

In this extreme case whereby ur teamates really need dps and u as razor
got s&y...that is really a pity.i understand Mer decision to get -rep 4 u...
U totally lower the potential that razor can achieve.



iluv_meow

[Nektor]

Yes, this is a fake account, my name isn't really Nektor. (wtf is a fake account?)

So, if you cannot beat my arguments, you just say I'm not safelisted and try to discredit me personally? GJ
Non SS players' arguments are just as valid, untill proven otherwise. You being safelisted doesn't make you the professor of DotA.

And, you are wrong, SnY IS a DPS item, not the most DPS focused item, but DPS item nevertheless. I'm not saying it was the best choice in this game, I'm just saying it can't be grounds for -rep IMHO.

[ss-Wolf-X]

S&y is a good Item on Razor (my opinion) +atk speed / + ms + Dmg
Razor has imba ms with s&y...in my opinion its a good item on Razor.
But still costs alot!

[Matsumoto]

i feel i have a need to reply as i like razor and use it many times not only in pub but as well as
good inhouse games.I agree with Mer as Razor need dmg items more to less effective items like s&y.
Firstly not only with the line up
he mentioned but in any line up, razor really can deal massive damage with
the right items.Yes, there's no "perfect items" but radiance and butterfly
definitely are up there.

In pub, what items u buy really doesnt matter as the level of playing is really
low compare to good private games whereby the items u chose really depends
the game's outcome.I always argue that dps heroes need at least some decent hp but not to some high extent.
In this case, u can purchase bracers,
or like mer said str threads or even other examples orge > bkb or even
vitality booster > manta my fav =). This items are just to boost ur hp and u dont have to finish the build.
If u are smart, u can just buy one sange,
rush expensive items and finish ur s&y later.I am not here to give some strategy guide on razor
or something but that's just my opinion.

As for frenzy, there is really no need on early stages unless u have really
reliable teamates =) like in clan war whereby u must play ur role nicely
example dps > go dps.In ss games, u dont know many players and their playing style
so getting decent hp on dps heroes is just to play safe so u can
build on ur items.No idiots would save so much money,die much and cant farm that particular item.

In this extreme case whereby ur teamates really need dps and u as razor
got s&y...that is really a pity.i understand Mer decision to get -rep 4 u...
U totally lower the potential that razor can achieve.



iluv_meow



You are noob man , that is all from me :tiphat:
p.s. and Mer to :clap:

[Uberpr0]

I take frenzy when i Dont have statc, i am noob

You are noob man , that is all from me :tiphat:
p.s. and Mer to :clap:


so your a noob that calls someone else noob even tough you present no legitimate arguments

Why does every retarded little kid stick their nose in where they aren't called?


back on topic :

The way i see it , the whole razor s&y stuff is , -rep applyable , mer is right , especially when people request that you get dps AND YOUR ROLE IS getting high dps

THIS is ss game , YOUR teamates are RELIABLE (unless proven otherwise) , such heroes as omni ,alch, rhasta , dk on your team , you really need to worry about hp? with such stuns , disables? furthermore , imba tanks?

anyways , this should be closed , i think we have seen enough opinions of the people and now mods should review this and decide if there is a penalty or not

:tclosed:

[VengefulSpammer]

u write zillion of senseless posts that noone is goona to read...just cuz of sny...ur so sad guys...too good i quited ss

[Matsumoto]

SS.. Guys.. My bro just shown this to me ? Is this what SS is now ? Whos gonna be first one to report another ? If u act like that u ain't nothing better than cocksuckers..

I'm not defending my bro, but reporting someone for making SnY to Razor ? He didn't made Soul Booster for **** sake.. Rofl.. You guys are funny, and this supposed ti be "pro channel, with good team spirit and all" ROFL

Go ahead, ruin whats left of it... I know ppl who quited just becase of ppl acting like that... Whos gonna be next one to leave ? .. I feel happy I left this, I really do...

:)


Respect :clap: For This One :thumbUP:
You are 100% Right

[IceBird]

Respect :clap: For This One :thumbUP:
You are 100% Right

leave this thread alone already been abused enough

[BOo0nzY]

requesting soares is just ridiculous... he's one of the best things ss has to offer... -1 rep for unintentional leaving is all mods will do in this case...

[SoareS.]

First of all , i think host ( [ra]Mer) kick me because i never had a problem with connection specially when bot cr8 on SS.
You talking about radiance , he's good but it gives me only dmg.S&Y gives me some better stats (dmg,hp,as,ms,armor,maim).Admins if you think that i deserve 1-rep for my build then give me...
P.S. I never left the game :)

[Dark_Seer]

s&y - 16 agility + 16 dmg = 32 dmg per hit added for 5k

radiance - 60 dmg + 35 dmg aura that stacks with ur ulti and u become somthing like a mini pudge :) = 95 dmg per hit added for 5.3k

Or Mjolnir but its a bit more expensive.

now do u really think is it good s&y for razor ? And why do u need 16 % Ias from yasha when u have a skill that gives u 100 %. sange and yahsa is a pub item not for serious games :)
That nicely summarizes sange and yasha on razor. And on most heroes. It's just too expensive for it's bonuses, they are pathetic.

requesting soares is just ridiculous... he's one of the best things ss has to offer... -1 rep for unintentional leaving is all mods will do in this case...
I dunno him, and how he plays, but if he does not use frenzy on razor, and makes PT+S&Y, then i have serious doubts.

the fact that its ranged has nothing to do with it being magic. mkb bash is the same as basher except it deals more damage and less stun time. the only magic "bash" is rifleman headshot
the ministun or stun itself is no magic at all. Only the damage that comes along with the stun is magic, but the MKB stun itself is not magic, so bkb doesn't block it and BLOW ME.
You make me think that replays or test games are not enough. There should be some theoretical tests or something ;p
Short explanation:
There is a skill, named Bash. It has percentage, stun duration, and bonus dmg, and is passive. Every single bashing skill/item in dota is made off Bash (uhm, there might be few exceptions, but i doubt it). Basher, MKB, Headshot, FV bash, Slardar's bash, etc are all based off Bash, so they all have the same features, built in W3 engine. And by accident, Bash mechanics are just like Mer and Killer Bee Bop explained - Bash on melee heroes is non-magical, so goes through Avatar, but deals magic damage (that should be more precise, but I won't recall it now - anyway deals damage type prevented by magic immunity); Bash on ranged hero on the contrary is considered magical, so stunning effect won't affect Avatared unit (and will trigger Linken's), but the damage will go through - it's physical, reduced by armor, counts to lifesteal - but on ranged only; that made late drow so nice jungler, as her ultimate was based on Bash

----------------
whow, new reply.
You talking about radiance , he's good but it gives me only dmg.S&Y gives me some better stats (dmg,hp,as,ms,armor,maim)
Dmg - radiance wins.
hp - bracers wins.
ms, maim - can't argue with ms. But 5k for speed only, and ridiculously low chance slow (keep in mind, it's 5k for totally unreliable slow)? Especially that you had slowers/disablers in team? Not very smart imho
armor - ... ... ... if you want armor, you buy platemail, not S&Y. It's completely ommitable.
ias - you have FrEnZy. More seriously, razor with frenzy already has high attack speed, so needs damage; more attack speed without damage gives almost nothing

S&Y is item that gives boots to almost everything, and so it's bonuses are dispersed and low, in comparison to more focused items, like radiance. IMO more directed bonuses are better - if you are a tank, you need hp and armor, so you buy platemails/helms and hearts; if you are a damage dealer, you make damage items, not damage_and_ias_and_ms_and_hitpoints_and_armor_and_ slowOnlySometimes item ;)

[Mer]

First of all , i think host ( [ra]Mer) kick me because i never had a problem with connection specially when bot cr8 on SS.
Any proof? Or it's just useless spam?

[EscapeTheFate]

First of all , i think host ( [ra]Mer) kick me because i never had a problem with connection specially when bot cr8 on SS.
You talking about radiance , he's good but it gives me only dmg.S&Y gives me some better stats (dmg,hp,as,ms,armor,maim).Admins if you think that i deserve 1-rep for my build then give me...
P.S. I never left the game :)

So what that it gives "only damage".

1. Omni has heal, repel , ulti
2. Rasta has hex and shackle and wards
3. Your team has 2 stunners
4. Razor has frenzy

So now explain me why, why the **** do u need armor , hp, maim etc. Omni can heal you when on low hp , rasta holds/hexes , omni slows , alchemist stuns. So what is left to you is to quickly kill the targets. Do you understand now why sange and yasha is dumb to make on razor. Do you need these stats , when u have tons of heal , slow and disables. I feel like im explaining to somekind of 1st graders. Several ppl told you and the rest of the guys, that keep defending s&y , why it is bad on razor. We gave u facts , examples , mathematics , why the item is bad . What was your answer - nothing or something that was proved again wrong.And dont get me wrong I'm not writing this so that your receive -rep. I'm just trying to open your eyes and the rest of the guys that s&y is lame item on any hero, with few exceptions of course . So much money for mediocre stats boots and 16 % slow! No thanks , I'd rather buy radiance and be more careful in battles then this ****.

[OMGBergrush]

as one of the biggest s&y proponents on this server even i have to say that making s&y on razor is absurd. sometimes it does come in handy. but definitely not in that situation and definitely not as a primary item

[Mr.7error]

I have the same opinion as Berg. For example, sny can be usefull when you got no good tank in team and you make radi first. So you can stay in there long and chase them with ulti and radi and kill them.

[ANANANAN]

Bash on ranged hero on the contrary is considered magical, so stunning effect won't affect Avatared unit (and will trigger Linken's)

So from now on, sniper is considered as one of best teamplay heroes because he triggers linked and every1 needs to do bkb instead of linked :)

[-eXtasY-]

I think he learned the lesson , sometimes is better to explain some things then just punish .
This time only -1 rep expiring 23.04.2008 for unintentional leave , and hopefully i wont see such build on razor any more from your side .