Dota Ladder finally in ss

[-eXtasY-]

Hello , im glad to announce that dota ladder is finally finished and ready for use . Still , we cant see how it works and find bugs , before we fully test it . Thats why we are starting test period which will last till Sunday 23:59 when we will reset stats , and put it in official use .

4.03.2008 at 12:00 ladder was put in official use

Now some basic info about it .
Ladder is for now placed on link www.tnij.org/helios (http://www.tnij.org/helios) where u can see complete rankings . Soon , we will link ladder with guard , and u will be able to check rank with command whisper to bot also .

How does it work ? Well in order to get stats and info , its normal that it requires replays from ss games . That means that one player has to upload it on link above (button upload replay) , and program will do the rest .
It will pull info for all players who played , and insert it in ladder . There is protection so 2 replays from the same game wont be accepted.
Also in order to accept replay , your game has to be:
1. Played on DotA version 6.51 or older
2. Played with at least 8 ss players in (2 players max vouched , who wont be ranked of course)
3. Has to be officially over (end game screen must show up)

NOTE: Some replays from DotA can be corrupted (they show wrong result). This replays will not be able to upload.

Now info directly about way of ranking

Ladder is created ONLY based on wins and losses . It does show up some additional info like best k/d and cs , but that does NOT affect your rank.
Points given for game are based on difference beetwen average points collected by safelisted player in both teams.
The stronger is your team, the less points you gain.
For win you get much more points then for loss.
When both teams are equal in strength:
- players from winner team get 10 points
- players from defeated team get 2 points
This numbers change as difference beetwen teams grows.


Spam is HIGHLY forbidden , since this is a serous project, so take care


CREDITS FOR THIS PROJECT GO TO ANOMANDARIS :tiphat:

[d_tain]

nice idea...everything seems to work...
dota-allstars made something like this, but i think this one is better cuz its simpler...

anyway i post here to give suggestion and i have question..

like if u can make when u click nickname that u get some stats only for that nick...like total games played, cs, k/d, maybe even favorite type of hero (str,int,agi), or assists (from 6.51) and some random funny stats if not problem...
maybe even clan ranking ladder...

and now question? what if 2+ players upload replays of same game, will ur program know its the same game?

[Nennad]

hey you think there was stacked teams till now ? watch how imba games top 5 imba's vs average scourge :)))

[c_blizzard]

Just a thought i don't think that the ladder shows very well the info. Look at this:

16 SubLlme 11 1 0 0/0 274-21

Well it seems like SubLIme has 11 points from only 1 game? and he was 0/0 heroes k/d?
And when i look at my stats too i see i have 3 points from 2 lost matches. How's that because if i loose a game and the opponent team is better i get 2 points. My totally is 3
Or maybe i am totally wrong:-??

[Sigrada]

For every win , you will get +8 points while for lose u wont neither get or lose any.
In my opinion this is a bad idea. Although losing points might make people whine and demand for -sp when they feel that the teams are unequal, it's pretty bad to only gain points from playing aswell. The ladder wont show the most skillful players at the top of the ranking, but rather the people who play the most, and that pretty much defeats the whole point of having a ranking system. I understand that you do not want to create an IHCS-ish atmosphere and you want to keep it fun, but in my opinion, a ranking system is supposed to order players by skill, not by the number of games they play.

[-toXic-]

i dont know how its even possible to have 3 points.:P

[straider]

so the ff rule got disbaned?

[d_tain]

i think they forgot to say when u lose a game vs. below average poeple u still get 1 point.

i think if reply is posted by a guy who left before game actualy ended info could be inacurate.
if this works on same basics like dota-allstars ladder system this should be noted.

IMPORTANT: Some stats (kills, deaths, creep kills, denies) will not be saved to a replay unless the saver of the replay stays until the end of the game (when the Throne/Tree dies)

[Warkaholic]

so the ff rule got disbaned?

U ff, leave, then the others will get the throne in at most 5 minutes. FF rules involve some raxes down, so it's not hard to do it


I would suggest some minor changes in rankings for the beginning:
- not a strictly avg(T1) > avg(T2); better consider an interval of +/- 10% (if avg(T1) + 10% > avg(T2) > avg(T1) - 10%, then consider those are 2 equal teams)
- the total number of points should be corrected by the win/loss ratio (so you won't have 100 loses which value more than 3 wins); I see this working as a penalty, only for those who have more loses then wins; example: adjusted_points = points * no_of_wins / no_of_loses; for wins > loses, the points should be unaffected
- points decay, for not playing a required number of games in a given interval

Of course, this is not a fair system, for a more reliable one I will chose something similar to the ELO ratings in chess or boxrec ratings

[IceBird]

looks good
cool work thanks for this :D
yes boxrec rating would be an improvement also

[bigTomaTosouPWN]

i think if a team with xx? more a.r. than the other one loses, it should lose points (like -1 or -2)

[Anomandaris]

like if u can make when u click nickname that u get some stats only for that nick...like total games played, cs, k/d, maybe even favorite type of hero (str,int,agi), or assists (from 6.51) and some random funny stats if not problem...
maybe even clan ranking ladder...


It's impossible to read assists from replay file (in 6.51 dota version).
About overall CS and K/D, I was always against, because they show only if you play carry farmer or support hero. However showing list of all games, with stats for each, without summarizing it, is possible, and probably willl be done in near future.


and now question? what if 2+ players upload replays of same game, will ur program know its the same game?

Yes

Just a thought i don't think that the ladder shows very well the info. Look at this:

16 SubLlme 11 1 0 0/0 274-21

Well it seems like SubLIme has 11 points from only 1 game? and he was 0/0 heroes k/d?
And when i look at my stats too i see i have 3 points from 2 lost matches. How's that because if i loose a game and the opponent team is better i get 2 points. My totally is 3
Or maybe i am totally wrong:-??

This is test system, and number of points may look strange. Still they are explainable.

so the ff rule got disbaned?
No. Although the winning team may want to finish game in order to get valid replay that can give him points.

[XFIRE]

Change that thing on the navbar from 'uplaod' to 'upload' :)

Edit by eX : thanks , im nob ;)

[Mr.7error]

How come some of us got replay of em posted when we didn't even play **** :) ? And here comes my next question> can it verify if the replay was of some game since this was initiated and not before ?

[Sagacity]

I think it is a great idea although there will be changes you Ano are a VERY COOL GUY for doing this for ss..



Keep the good job up.

[Fire]

I think that this dota ladder is a nice thing to do to invite players to play more ss games then pub.
But i agree with Sigrada on the point that you should have some minus points if you lose games...

[-toXic-]

why are kills counted only from last game and cs also??i had 9/5 last game...but i had first game also something like that but still 9/5 and cs also from last game.P

[sublime_]

i have alot old replayes can i upload it ?

[Ludwiczek]

its testing period so probably yes

BTW more files, more situatuion and test, can only make ladder project better, try cheat or hack or whatever ;) or try find bugs, this can be usueful for futrue, when all will be checked, ladder RESET and normal start

ps. what with players which lost connection? or qutiers?, for example, player 1 lost connection in 39 min, in 41min player2 quit as quiter, and
before thron destory 3 players said gg and quit too, when game officialy ended, only 5 players on map?

ps2. how will be checked who is ss or who not?

example 1

we have 5v5 8 ss + 2 vouched 22.02.2008,
1 ss player from game take ban 23.02.2008,
i upload reaply 24.02.2008 (when he not on safelist cose banned and rempove)
replay will be accept or not?

ps3
when player have some position in ladder, and he banned and join ss again, stats reset? or lower? or same?

ps4
what when players changes acc name? you need manual change in ladder system and propoer set or some ID auto find and do it?

ps5
what about -sp mode? on dota repalys site when replay upload teams shown winner looser before swap players :D?
you system correct recognize swaped players?

i just want upload replay and got this error

[sublime_]

i just wanna ask what about old replayes ..mby someone have 100 old replayes and he can upload it ?

100 wins 0 loses :D

[BlackLagoon]

i just wanna ask what about old replayes ..mby someone have 100 old replayes and he can upload it ?

100 wins 0 loses :D
i was going to ask that...i upoaded 1 rep and it gave me points..but what about old reps?

[Anomandaris]

i have alot old replayes can i upload it ?

YESS. The more you upload now, the more bugs we will find. After ladder reset old replay will not be possible to upload.

its testing period so probably yes

BTW more files, more situatuion and test, can only make ladder project better, try cheat or hack or whatever ;) or try find bugs, this can be usueful for futrue, when all will be checked, ladder RESET and normal start


Agree


ps. what with players which lost connection? or qutiers?, for example, player 1 lost connection in 39 min, in 41min player2 quit as quiter, and
before thron destory 3 players said gg and quit too, when game officialy ended, only 5 players on map?


Ludwiczek, we don't play pubs, there are no quiters here :). When someone discs and game carry on, players take points normally (including dcer). From replay it is impossible to say how much leave changed game score.


ps2. how will be checked who is ss or who not?

example 1

we have 5v5 8 ss + 2 vouched 22.02.2008,
1 ss player from game take ban 23.02.2008,
i upload reaply 24.02.2008 (when he not on safelist cose banned and rempove)
replay will be accept or not?


Players in game will be compared to guard database in the moment of uploading replay. So in your example, the answer is no.


ps3
when player have some position in ladder, and he banned and join ss again, stats reset? or lower? or same?


The same, but for period of ban he won't receive points ofc.


ps4
what when players changes acc name? you need manual change in ladder system and propoer set or some ID auto find and do it?


When you change nick, you keep your points.


ps5
what about -sp mode? on dota repalys site when replay upload teams shown winner looser before swap players :D?
you system correct recognize swaped players?


Ofc, it correctly recognize swaped players :)


i just want upload replay and got this error

Thank you for report. :tiphat: Can you also upload on forum replay that caused this error ?

i just wanna ask what about old replayes ..mby someone have 100 old replayes and he can upload it ?
100 wins 0 loses :D

Not possible in final ladder version :)

[IBLIS]

host bot shud be used always so no imba host.

[sunnis]

How the **** do I have 22 points on [sdm]Caine account? I uploaded nothing.

Somebody has been digging up the trash?

[Ludwiczek]

Thank you for report. :tiphat: Can you also upload on forum replay that caused this error ?



np, i try upload now and error again, may to imba replay ;)

btw other replay when try upload shows me that already upload, so mayby its rare bug with me imba 1 reaplay ?

ps.
win xp pro pl +sp2 with some updates
errro in both browsers (opera. IE)
Sun Java installed (Version 6 Update 3)

ps2. [si]pedro you upload replay from "koko1" game xD, hehe

ps3 found bug again with next replay (fustfunnygame)

[sublime_]

How the **** do I have 22 points on [sdm]Caine account? I uploaded nothing.

Somebody has been digging up the trash?

that bcoz have old replays uploaded for testing ladder i think

[BlackLagoon]

ps2. [si]pedro you upload replay from "koko1" game xD, hehe


y lol i saw that too ,*** pedro XD

[sublime_]

On many ppl do not show K/D .... all have same 0/0

[Sagacity]

guys why wanna reset the ladder?


ffs i didn,t upload anything and i have good score :beer:

cheers i like it :clap::clap:



if still want to reset when will it be? estimated time?

[Ludwiczek]

guys, you now keep silent, but when reset and project will start you all 100% will ask 100 studupid questions and start reporting bugs...

cant do all it now?

try find old, play and upload new replay (freky size, names, other map path, map names, bugs,whatever)

ask about some queistion, post your things, cose before serisuos start project must be tested and no one want to start, and then hang up, and reset and test again...

go go go bastards! :)


ps1
what about kills/dead stats, many palyers have 0/0? bug or they no dies and no kills ;p?

ps2
mayby in ladder before RANK column, put "players number" column? like

Nr RANK
1 1
2 2
3 2
4 2
5 3

it will show how many players are ranked now


ps3 in future will be some icon/image rank system? mean rank and images qual this rank?

ps4 mayby some bonus points for players playing ss tournaments? think about it

[Sigrada]

I think it's pretty obvious that the rating system is flawed atm because you have a 3-9 player rated much higher than a 3-0 player and a 1-6 player rated higher than a 2-0 player.

[Ludwiczek]

I think it's pretty obvious that the rating system is flawed atm because you have a 3-9 player rated much higher than a 3-0 player and a 1-6 player rated higher than a 2-0 player.


im thinking about it too, but its no so clear..

if only wins are important:

like player 5-0 is better then player 4-3 or 5-3 or 3-8,
then players will be afarid and no want play many ss game to avoid losing, it make to much stress ;), im nice ranked 10-0, every game i will play i can lost and 10-1 and break my nice record ;)

anyway, its not fair that players which have much time and play all time ss games and have 2-20 0-30 5-15 (win/loss) are higher ranked then good players which cant play so many or play less but win all

its hard thing and need be discused by players and mods

the way is probably keep taking points by every game but very small points?

[Sigrada]

In my opinion it's a good idea to use an already well developed rating system like chess ratings or whatever.

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

it should be like ladder...when you loose you loose xp as well cuz in this way first ranked will be the players which play the most,and i dont have much free time to play ss games in this period + i am not in my usual mood so this system maybe needs re thinked a little...

[Sagacity]

i think is quite balance the ladder at least we see who plays more private games.... beside when you have many games you will se that victory counts very much.

BTW you reseted the ladder? it doesnt, work now...

[Anomandaris]

Point system in test ladder is quite simple and worth nothing. There will be better system, when we start official ladder.

Ladder can sometimes don't work, becouse of server problems. Same as Guard :)

0-0 K/D is shown, when somebody has best K/D ratio < 0 (like 1-4).

We are still discussing in mod team about minus points for loses.

There will be icons in near future probably, as well as little images with ladder statistics for each player, that can be put in forum signature

[BlackLagoon]

that would be imba anom XD

[IceBird]

that would be nice anom

[BOo0nzY]

that would be cool anom

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

that would be nice cool imba anom

[Anomandaris]

More spam plz ;)
What would be cool ?

[Ogi.]

That would be very cool anom! ;p

[d_tain]

i have suggestion to make...
becuse dota games dont last all the same you could make:
-best CS/DENY per minute

edit: i always look that in game, i know if i have 2cs/minute i suck very much so, 4 per minute is like acceptable but bad, 6/minute is my average i think...
i know it depends what hero u take but still...

[-eXtasY-]

i have suggestion to make...
becuse dota games dont last all the same you could make:
-best CS/DENY per minute

edit: i always look that in game, i know if i have 1cs/minute i suck very much so, 2 per minute is like acceptable but bad, 3/minute is my usual...

It would attract kids to mass pick carry heroes just to have great scores. Thats the reason why we didnt put things as overal/average cs , overal/average k/d and common....

[d_tain]

well this is ss community, its rare that someone plays just to get more kills...
best k/d is making people say (u stole my kill) and best cs is already making people creep in woods (instead team work), so thats already started...
but anyway :tiphat: as u wish

[Heldarion]

I'd suggest making also a similar ladder for the clans that would participate. I know it's kinda hard and Clan Wars aren't that often out here, but let's say it could help seed the teams for upcoming tournaments or something.

my 2 euros

[[SyS]-Shinde]

Why doesn't it load the ladder page for me? It only loads a blank page..

[D3c3bal]

it doesn't work for nabs :laugh:

[Anomandaris]

-Shinde;733384']Why doesn't it load the ladder page for me? It only loads a blank page..

What browser do you use Shinde ? Try in other one, maybe it will work then... I know that opera can have problems with showing sites by ip address.

[LifeDrainer[RO]]

well till now worked(i mean last days)but i tryed few mins ago and same...blank page and i use standard internet explorer...

[Ludwiczek]

What browser do you use Shinde ? Try in other one, maybe it will work then... I know that opera can have problems with showing sites by ip address.

i use Opera 9.26 with Sun Java installed (Version 6 Update 3)
and works always with both adresses

http://www.tnij.org/Helios
http://150.254.70.99:8080/Helios/

[[SyS]-Shinde]

I am using standard IE and none of those adresses work for me.It used to work a few days ago but not anymore.

[Ludwiczek]

hmm, strange, what appear when you click on adres? blank page? or error and blank page?

what version of java you have installed? verrify it on:

http://www.javatester.org/version.html
http://www.java.com/en/download/help/testvm.xml

and try load page in other browser (opera,firefox)

you using some security high lvl or freaky programs?

[Anomandaris]

You don't need java for it :)

I really don't know where is problem. Maybe I should move ladder to more reliable server

EDIT: You can't see ladder pages from Internet Explorer, for normal browsers it should work ok

[Nocawy]

Almost always:
number of games played == skill

[Ludwiczek]

You don't need java for it :)


-.-

i were thinking that java needed cose in bug reported by me i see some **** like:

..
sun.rmi.server.UnicastServerRef.dispatch(UnicastSe rverRef.java:336)
sun.rmi.transport.Transport$1.run(Transport.java:1 59)
java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
...
and other s h i t with java word ;)

i checeked with IE and blank too

btw i know all hate IE but you shoud make acces and proper work for all browsers ;)

[Anomandaris]

I know, I know...
It is something with javascript as i see, I will fix it soon.

Ludwi, you have seen java stack trace, because ladder is written in jsp (java server pages). All java thing is done on server side, your browser get clean html page.

[Ludwiczek]

whats this (screen)?

i know its nothing important, probably just lil problems with opera +css standards or sth like that?

[Anomandaris]

whats this (screen)?

i know its nothing important, probably just lil problems with opera +css standards or sth like that?

fixed

IE problem fixed as well

[Anomandaris]

Ladder has been reseted, test period is over.

Ladder rules will be put in first post soon.

Good luck !

[[miL]Obst]

I found a bug- Best K/D only shows when you have more kills that deaths. If you have more deaths, it shows as 0/0.

[Sigrada]

There's still some old replays uploaded even if it's said that game was played on "March 4" so that system is wrong. Also, you still get points for losing and for the reasons I've already stated in this thread I feel that this is kinda lame :/

[sublime_]

still ppl upload old replays :S

[Ludwiczek]

lol, rank works ~6h and ss-Kai played and won 5 games o.O nice performance dude :) you will play much today?

ps
best farmer still tay :P

[Anomandaris]

If you detect some old replay uploaded please tell me. I wanted this ladder be as simplest as possible, so there is no good old replay detection.

[Sagacity]

There's still some old replays uploaded even if it's said that game was played on "March 4" so that system is wrong. Also, you still get points for losing and for the reasons I've already stated in this thread I feel that this is kinda lame :/

Sigrada win is at least 9 points

Loss is 2


How much do you think will interfere when have 20 games played?

Example i have 10 wins = 90 points

20 loss = 40 points

so i guess not so much diferences.


Of cours on 3 games it matters but on 20 another story.

[Ludwiczek]

http://150.254.70.99:8080/Helios

site dont work now....

[[YY]Kai]

true.. doesnt work for me either :s

[VamoS_GringO]

Now it works again..check it out...me sux :)