World War II

[LoGiStiK]

Free discussion about World War II.
Main debates are:
- How did it affect your country during war time.
- On what side was your country?
- Significant events where your country's army or at least a division/batalion was present.
- Several important events that had happened - do you think your country did what was right?
- What was the aftermath of the war for your country.
- Do you think the war could've been avoided or at least shortcuted somehow? If so say how.
- War starters (Germans) - how do you classifiy them at the begining and end of the war? (ex: strong , orgranised etc.)
- The Allies - how do you classify them at the begining and end of war? (ex: strong , orgranised etc.)
- Weaponry - what was the military power your country had? How would you count it comparing to other nations. And do you think that military power had a significant role in the war for one of the main sides?
- Weaponry 2 - Comparing to today's technology (in armaments) , what's the difference between today and what was then?

The great atomic bombs.
- What do you think they were meant to be?
- How do you consider them? (ex: great , horrifying , stupid etc.)

First off , i want only people who know what they speak of , and for arguments , you could try finding a site to sustain what you said , like a source.

And of course , no flaming , no arguing , and no stupid spam posts.
And no Putnik :p joking.

[Kazmaer]

Are we supposed to answer to all of your questions.
I'll just say a few things. My country was on a nazi side.
If I were a German, I would be sorry that Hitler had lost the war.
But his victory was not my gain, so I remain neutral.
I admire and respect Adolf Hitler and understand his vision, but since I'm a Croat, not a German, it's good that all ended the way it did.

[CaRaMBa]

I admire and respect Adolf Hitler and understand his vision.

lol...lol...LOL
He is not the person who should be admired/respected. What he has done is unacceptable.

[Rasta]

Hitler was mentally sick person..
no one is allowed to kill ppl..

[Brian_Molko]

no no no u prolly misunderstood him .... the fack is that Hitler was one of the greathest minds in human history(he even wrote a book caled Mein Kampf witch was his autobiography,but main goal was exposition of his ideology-very hard thing to write and read),only problem was that he used it for bad thingz.
ill try to answer on some of logistiks questions(on those questions that im not shure that i know answer i will not answer)
-my country was efected by the ww 2 same as with other wars that took place here .... slowed down progres and developing of my country
-we were always with russians (the alies)
-i think war was decided when hitler didnt menaged to bring down russia as he wanded (he wandet that to be very fast). if i recall right he sent 3 million ppl to russia(breaking deal with stalin,wich was made two years before),and got totaly owned by very cold russians winters.
-atomic bombs.... Americans droped them ofc... im not gonna even coment on that cuz i will come to current issue that my country have with american agresors and thats not issue here ...

[Rasta]

i know what are u talking about but he wasn't "good" in his had...
normal person can't kill so many innocent people..
greathest minds in human history
thats true he was great leader and very smart..
but as i said..
psycho :D

[kranz]

ok, here it is:Poland was beaten in circa 4-5 weeks.We had poor equipment and average strategy-so frankly speaking we were owned but germans sustained heavy loses in men too. Poland had an option to join germany before september 1939 to attack the soviets but refused.After 1944 many groups supported them in gaining power butmany joined guerillas and fought against.Bla bla-aftermath was ruinous to poland-communism until 1989. The Allies-omg. Great Britain almost pwned after dunkirque(u know-the city from which they evacuated themselves) sending help to russia(and later when they became germans foe).The most pissing me off matter is roosevelt attitude to stalin-he was so pro-soviet that he agreed for everthing.Then comes atomic bomb-a symbol of power only-Truman was hatted soviets and realised how dangerous they are. Last-weaponry.Germans had the best equipment of all countries.First jet fighter, machine-gun for special type of bullet(dunno the correct name) which was StG, waffen ss which was a precurosor of european union army(which is meant to be made)and lots more. Submarines-type XXI and XXIII first. I recomend D.Irving for the matter of "if the was could be avoided" as well as for germ.prepar.for making atomic bomb. Also V.Suvorov for "soviet union was a peaceful country attacked by evil Hitler".

PS: for those who think that Hitler killed anybody by giving an order-find in google or books what is M.Broszat award.Hf

[LoGiStiK]

Are we supposed to answer to all of your questions.
I'll just say a few things. My country was on a nazi side.
If I were a German, I would be sorry that Hitler had lost the war.
But his victory was not my gain, so I remain neutral.
I admire and respect Adolf Hitler and understand his vision, but since I'm a Croat, not a German, it's good that all ended the way it did.

How about you go in his concentration camps , will you admire him then? Geesh..

[IOwnYouAll]

I admire and respect Adolf Hitler and understand his vision.
same here...i se him as a inteligent man,great strategist and those kind of stuff...not the "moster" ppl see him as
no no no u prolly misunderstood him .... the fack is that Hitler was one of the greathest minds in human history(he even wrote a book caled Mein Kampf witch was his autobiography,but main goal was exposition of his ideology-very hard thing to write and read),only problem was that he used it for bad thingz.

yes,i know about the book,i tryed to read it,but got bored after the first two chapters(it's a psihological book,and it's hard to read)...it's amazing how someone who didn't have higher education was able to write such a complex book. it helped me understand the nazi ideologi better
How about you go in his concentration camps , will you admire him then? Geesh..

yes,i will admire him then...sortly i started reading a book called " The Trial of Nurnberg "(Procesul de la Nurnberg - for romanians ;) ),a book where they use allmost EXACT informations about WWII...there i found out that ppl from concentration camps recived about 1600 calories/day ,only in the last few months of the war was cut down to 800...so they didn't experience such harsh conditions,as ppl belive...

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

AJalex:

Well i respect Hitler for his idealogy and inteligence not to mention his strategy.
And well i consider that he helped a bit by cleaning the world of most of the forsaken people.
And as d3ath said above , in concentration camps you did not have such an unacceptable life , it's just because they killed people , that created the fear of those camps.And about the jews that he killed i have no mercy because well i looked up on some jew history and found out some despicable things that no one should endure , especially girls, lookup somewhere like youtube or wikipedia some jew rules of life and you will find out disgusting things about their life.
Yes i know Jeesus was a jew but well i don't think that he wanted jews to act like that.

[Slayzer]

How about you go in his concentration camps , will you admire him then? Geesh..

He killed 2 milions of serbs in WW2... such smart person... U really need to genius to manage to murder so many ppl!

The best question is should we join Germany and Italy... noone can trust such person as Hitler was.:smile3::smile3::smile3:
:shh:

[CaRaMBa]

He killed 2 milions of serbs in WW2... such smart person... U really need to genius to manage to murder so many ppl!

The best question is should we join Germany and Italy... noone can trust such person as Hitler was.:smile3::smile3::smile3:
:shh:

omg

Let me tell you something: Not only serbs died in the war and not only 2 millions of people, a little bit more :)

[Slayzer]

omg

Let me tell you something: Not only serbs died in the war and not only 2 millions of people, a little bit more :)

I know, but I dont know how many so I dont wanna say untruth...

[Slayzer]

And dont think that I dont know that the Poland was the first country that was attacked by Germany.

[LoGiStiK]

So , you admire him because:
- He persecuted and killed millions without any reason. (more than 300.000 were children)
- He started a war , again without any good reason.
- He raped his grand-daughter.
- He had Parkinson sindrome (meaning he was a bit out of it)
- He killed alot of jews , true , but why? Didn't you think of that?


Now , you said he's 'a great strategist'.
Dude go away , i told you i only want people who know what they are saying.
I know alot of examples when he was playing war and driving his generals crazy.
Here's some examples:
- In Normandy after DDay , germans were in good defensive positions in high , rocky , slippery terrain. And what did mr. big strategist think of? Oh i know, he thrown his army in an offensive , with 200.000 against 1.500.000 allies who just landed on Normandy shores.
- Caen village , a verry important HQ , good defensive positions , what does mr. strategist thinks ? Oh i know , again he is launching his army into an offensive and leaving Caen almost empty.


Dudes , this guy was playing war from 'Wolf's Lair' , there are so many countless people , german veterans from WW2 saying what absurd orders Hitler was giving them. Besides , did you know that if any general wanted to even suggest something , he would get dismissed? I mean what kind of leader is that , thinking he can lead the war by himself.
So my dear pals , don't say he's a big strategist , 'great' stuff made by germans were : Destruction of Poland , Destruction of France , Invasion of Africa etc. But all of these were done by none other than Rommel and other generals. Not by him.

Tell me , what's to admire in these actions?

[kranz]

- He started a war , again without any good reason.
- He raped his grand-daughter.
- He had Parkinson sindrome (meaning he was a bit out of it)
- He killed alot of jews , true , but why? Didn't you think of that?
-there were hundrends of wars started without a reason-read Irving pls-you

"Grand-daughter"-lol?How could he have a grandchild without having a child?U mean Geli Raubal?They had "regular sex" not a rape-read Bullock or Kershaw.Parkinson is true-but it is known that it doesn't influence mental abbilities. "Killed a lot o jews"-yeah, right.Everyone knows that he "did" but frankly speaking thousands of germans should be blamed for that.Once again-find what is Martin Broszat award. Hitler's abbility to command as LogistiK said was poor. If you read some of diaries quoting his words you would get impression that he believe in luck.After 1943 he believed that his succeses from 1939-1941 proved that he is smth like a choosen one. Was there any Normandy offensive?I'm not quite sure about this.
#IOwnYouAll "1600 calories"-take a slice of bread and a cup of water.Do u think it is 1600 calories?Don't believe in everything that is written(and tell me the author of the book).
But there were also possitive aspects in III Reich.E.g-health care-it was germans who saw that smoking cigarettes causes a cancer. Modern europe economical system was based on the basis of III Reich examples(find who was Otto Ohlendorf).

[rC]satyricon[oo]

Hitler was mentally sick person..
no one is allowed to kill ppl..
we are all sick but he was inteligent and im so sad for his fall

[Brian_Molko]

for logistik
he was unordinary smart
he was exelent strategist
how could someone make dozens of milions germans to folow him blindly if he was dumb ass ? he knowed how to ''enter'' ppl mind and make them belive into his words make them think what he think.BUT im not saying that he wasnt a BAD person and that he wasnt doing BAD things,and im not saying that i agree in any kind of way with his deeds.


just a question .... i heard somewhere that hitler overslept a D-Day ... is that true ?

[Mustafar]

How about you go in his concentration camps , will you admire him then? Geesh..

I'm Kazmaer.
As I said, his gain wasn't my gain. But from the objective point of view he was a genius, charismatic and powerful leader, man with balls of steel and an excellent military tactician
He tried to create a clean, powerful and superior race. He wanted to get rid of every genetic weakness and illness that trouble human kind today. He followed Nietschze's theory of Ubermensch that's why he should be respected, not loved but respected!

Respect for Adolf Hitler as for any other great leader.

So , you admire him because:
- He persecuted and killed millions without any reason. (more than 300.000 were children)
- He started a war , again without any good reason.
- He raped his grand-daughter.
- He had Parkinson sindrome (meaning he was a bit out of it)
- He killed alot of jews , true , but why? Didn't you think of that?





He didn't kill them for no reason, he killed them for a good reason, a reason that will get me banned if I state it.
He didn't start a war for no good reason, had he succeeded, Germany would've ruled the world and his policy and ideology could've been spread throughout the entire Globe.
He didn't rape his grand daughter because he didn't have any children, much less the grandchildren.
He did have Parkinson's disease which is a neuromuscular disorder caused by a lack of dopamine, which is a receptor and Parkinson's disease didn't affect any of his intellectual abilities, so go get educated.

[Ferragamo]

if only all balkan countries accepted germany to be its ally, all things would be different now.

but NO... they had to make some retarded decisions and not to do the right thing.

better to be ruled under and know that u are being ruled by someone, then being ruled from the shadows.

[Brian_Molko]

if only all balkan countries accepted germany to be its ally, all things would be different now.

but NO... they had to make some retarded decisions and not to do the right thing.

better to be ruled under and know that u are being ruled by someone, then being ruled from the shadows.


im sory logistik , u said no flame .... but this is the most stupidest statement i ever heard

[kranz]

#Brian_Molko-"he was unordinary smart"-fully agree, "excelent strategist"-if we are talking about the cobmination of policy and war I would say he was good-he knew that both France and UK won't react for annecting Austria, Czechoslovakia and finally Poland(declaring war was ROFL).But if u are talking about his abilities to command armies-he was a corporal not an officer-so he sucked at that imo.Read Heinz Magenheimer's book about his strategy. He had some outstanding abilities that made people follow him.
"i heard somewhere that hitler overslept a D-Day ... is that true"-yes that is true-he was sleping till 12 am and the officers responsible for informing him were affraid to wake him him. BTW-d-day was 06.06-but Fuhrer hesitated with moving Panzer Lehr from south france to Normandy up to middle of July-a blunder that prevented Rundstedt forces to push allies to the sea

PS:#mustafar aka kazmaer-he had parkinson-David Irving along with some doctors proved that in reprinted version of Theodore Morrel diaries and notes.Fuhrer was given a special pill-will check the name later cos I have to go now

[CaRaMBa]

if only all balkan countries accepted germany to be its ally, all things would be different now.

but NO... they had to make some retarded decisions and not to do the right thing.

better to be ruled under and know that u are being ruled by someone, then being ruled from the shadows.

well...
If someone, who says he is superior to you and you will be his slave, asks you to be his ally, will you be his ally?

According to Hitler:
serbs, croats, slovakians, polish etc (all slavs) are all slaves, they don't deserve to be equal with the superior german race.
hungarians need to be moved back where they came from (river Volga, Asia...)

So if you were from these countries, would you like to be Hitler's ally??

[Ferragamo]

have you read main kumpf? what u said not equal to german race is a raw information that u remmember from some history book u read 5+ years ago.

one of things he intended in his future nations was that.
german being the superior race get to live in villages cause he believed that only life on village is good life, cities were too busy and fast paced which he didnt believe that was good, so thats why other nations(slavs, and some other would live in cities) anyway even now all ppl leave villages and come to live in big cities.

he was totally anti towards gipsies and jews.

anyway why would he offer peace treaty and ask those countries back then to join if he planned to exterminate them.
it seams silly.

[Slayzer]

if only all balkan countries accepted germany to be its ally, all things would be different now.

but NO... they had to make some retarded decisions and not to do the right thing.

better to be ruled under and know that u are being ruled by someone, then being ruled from the shadows.
How dare u speak like that about Balkan countries! If we had joined ur alliance all other countries would be conquered and we could have many more ppl killed by Germans all around the world! And not all the Balkan countries were against Germany! Albania,Bulgaria and Croatia(part of it-it was part of Yugoslavia) were in alliance with Germans! Only Yugoslavia(Serbia+Bosnia+Macedonia) and Greece where against Germans.

[kranz]

I have no fu***ng idea why at least 50% of topics on this forum end in fights like serbs against all the rest. Last time when I in a polite way said that "there were some serbs who fought in Waffen SS" I was called an anti-serb scum by one of the mods so now I'm not going to convince someof u that serbs were not only foe of Germany. When it comes to Hitler's attitude to other races-well-he even wanted to finish off Japaneese when he finally conquered Asia.

[Slayzer]

I have no fu***ng idea why at least 50% of topics on this forum end in fights like serbs against all the rest. Last time when I in a polite way said that "there were some serbs who fought in Waffen SS" I was called an anti-serb scum by one of the mods so now I'm not going to convince someof u that serbs were not only foe of Germany. When it comes to Hitler's attitude to other races-well-he even wanted to finish off Japaneese when he finally conquered Asia.

Can u please :read::read::read: what did I write before u write something! I didn't wrote anywhere that Serbs fought against all the rest! And I didn't say that there were not some Serbs who for Hitler! I am talking generally!!! Most of Serbs fought against Germans, like most of Croatians,Bulgarians,Albanians fought against Serbs and Greeks! And once again I say NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT MOST OF THEM! And I am talking about Balkan countries because I know Balkan history the best, for other parts of the world I know only important things.
So I don't wanna talk about things that I don't know so well.

[kranz]

My post didn't reffer to yours.It was only a general comment on "where is the discussion heading to".There are thousands of matters that can be talked about instead of Balkans etc. Ok.IMO Hitler was very elastic in case of deciding who is the enemy-he didn't touch Italian jews up to July/September 1943 when he realised that Italians betrayed him and started to support the Allies.

[Slayzer]

Once again, I can talk only about things that I know. I don't know so well history of other countries...

[kranz]

yeap, ok, I get your point.So maybe we can talk about school propaganda or smth like-have you ever been told smth that you found bullsh... by yourself?(I mean in school)And I'm also curious how many times did you discuss world war two, because in poland it works like that:primary s.-one, junior high-two, high s.-three.You "improve" the material you have learned before.Or at least you should.And last thing-have you ever heard of city of Katyn-in Russia, near Charkov.I'm curious what you school books tell about this story and so on.Waiting for answers.

[Slayzer]

Well it is true that before 2000 we had Milosevic as president and he changed our history books, but now we have good books with facts. So u will often hear different things from serbian ppl...

[Widowmaker]

Come on, I'm waiting gor the first ''Sieg Heil'' comment to pop out!

[CaRaMBa]

I've just found something interesting at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill) :)

[Slayzer]

im sory logistik , u said no flame .... but this is the most stupidest statement i ever heard
Well the point is that if Balkan coutries did accept Germany as ally then Germans could focused on Russia and it still wasn't winter in that time so Russia needed some time. When Serbia said no to Hitler he had to send some of his troops(just a few) to defeat alliance forces on the Balkans, but he lost time and he had to delay attack on Russia...

[Hedene]

A Neutral Country of WW2,
But highly effected with that...
In some reasons,
We had our own problems...
And better let them fight,
"While your friends and foe's are drinkin' better stay sober!"

[-Jimmy-]

Hitler should be admired, he was a man with vision and a very skilled leader, I also admire some of his points of view, let's not talk about it 'cause I don't want to insult anyone.

[Slayzer]

OK lets say that his vision was good which I consider. But the way of making that vision was bad! Making a country only with it's own ppl like only Germans are allowed to live in Germany and so on is good, but to kill so many people in the name of that idea???
I really don't know if u really think that he started a war only coz he was a nacist?! I think that it was a greatest lie in human history! He wanted to conquer the world!

[LoGiStiK]

So , killing millions for your ambitions are part of a good vision? How old are you?

[Slayzer]

So , killing millions for your ambitions are part of a good vision? How old are you?

ps. by Morandi:D

[kranz]

LOL-I knew -Jimmy- will get a ban.So maybe to avoid more bans we could discuss war films or smth like that.Dunno-favourite or funny one for you. My favourite is Der Untergang-showing last days of Hitler. I like it because except about 5 mistakes it gives an image that was presented in highly asssesed books(mostly based on J.Fest).

[Azem Galica]

So , killing millions for your ambitions are part of a good vision? How old are you?

I said some.
I'll make the font bigger if you don't understand.

[Slayzer]

So Neron was genius??? He burned the city because he didn't have afflatus! Why not it could be great picture, city in flames!

[-Kyuubi-]

ill post here something when i learn about it at school. curently im on WWI i think ill be in WWII in 2 weeks or so..

[kranz]

#asshol3man-when you start WWII ask your teacher for the exact date of it began

PS:lol-your nick was ******

[Rutkowski]

Hitler was a horrible leader. Sure, he could speak, but he lacked any kind of diplomatic ability, he couldn't lead armies for ****, he was more paranoid than Stalin, he sacrificed millions upon millions of people(including the Germans he had vowed to defend) for his own gain, he put his faith in weapons that any idiot saw that they wouldn't work, and his closest friends and ministers were maniacs.

I say this as a half-German who's grandmother is a survivor of WWII; whoever is saying Hitler was good at ANYTHING other than having speeches is delusional.

Seriously, the nazi apologists in this topic is kinda... weird.

[Slayzer]

Hitler was a horrible leader. Sure, he could speak, but he lacked any kind of diplomatic ability, he couldn't lead armies for ****, he was more paranoid than Stalin, he sacrificed millions upon millions of people(including the Germans he had vowed to defend) for his own gain, he put his faith in weapons that any idiot saw that they wouldn't work, and his closest friends and ministers were maniacs.

I say this as a half-German who's grandmother is a survivor of WWII; whoever is saying Hitler was good at ANYTHING other than having speeches is delusional.

Seriously, the nazi apologists in this topic is kinda... weird.

I agree!:clap::clap::clap: Well said.

[XFIRE]

Hitler's biggest mistake was invading Russia right when the winter would impend.. And, no one could win Russia in their OWN land, especially at winter; Moscow was germans' graveyard, and it was the move that led Germany to failing the war; if Hitler wouldn't wanted so much and would have stopped after invading and occupying Poland, he would have easily dealed with Americans, as French, British and other nations were already defeated, and russians wouldn't have had the guts of leaving their icy fortress.

A single move that decided the whole fate..

Americans benefited from Hitler's mistake and acted, showing their 'imbaness'; If Hitler wouldn't have mistook there, today's world probably wouldn't be the same, and, maybe it would have been better. I personally agreed in some points with the Fuhrer and if he would have succeded in his aim, I bet today I wouldn't have so many gipsies in my country.

[Slayzer]

Hitler's biggest mistake was invading Russia right when the winter would impend.. And, no one could win Russia in their OWN land, especially at winter; Moscow was germans' graveyard, and it was the move that led Germany to failing the war; if Hitler wouldn't wanted so much and would have stopped after invading and occupying Poland, he would have easily dealed with Americans, as French, British and other nations were already defeated, and russians wouldn't have had the guts of leaving their icy fortress.

A single move that decided the whole fate..

Americans benefited from Hitler's mistake and acted, showing their 'imbaness'; If Hitler wouldn't have mistook there, today's world probably wouldn't be the same, and, maybe it would have been better. I personally agreed in some points with the Fuhrer and if he would have succeded in his aim, I bet today I wouldn't have so many gipsies in my country.

That's why Serbia(in that time Kingdom of Yugoslavia) was important.
Coz Hitler expected that Balkan countries wont give resistance so when Yugoslavia joined alliance he had to delay his attack on Russia...

[Azem Galica]

Hitler's biggest mistake was invading Russia right when the winter would impend.. And, no one could win Russia in their OWN land, especially at winter; Moscow was germans' graveyard, and it was the move that led Germany to failing the war; if Hitler wouldn't wanted so much and would have stopped after invading and occupying Poland, he would have easily dealed with Americans, as French, British and other nations were already defeated, and russians wouldn't have had the guts of leaving their icy fortress.

A single move that decided the whole fate..

Americans benefited from Hitler's mistake and acted, showing their 'imbaness'; If Hitler wouldn't have mistook there, today's world probably wouldn't be the same, and, maybe it would have been better. I personally agreed in some points with the Fuhrer and if he would have succeded in his aim, I bet today I wouldn't have so many gipsies in my country.

That's why I admire him, we have something in common.

[XFIRE]

That's why I admire him, we have something in common.

I admire him too, but he acted like a fool.

Btw he had 1/5 from Allies' power and still managed to get close to the win and conquer/occupy 80% of the allied powerful countries.

[Kominterna]

Such attempt is futile and doomed to failure, he could never succeed.

[XFIRE]

Such attempt is futile and doomed to failure, he could never succeed.

If you would have studied World War2's history even a little, you would have never made that statement..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

Read: Axis Advances.. To see, where they got..

War was as good as won for Hitler&Co.

[Azem Galica]

His conclusions are based on speculations, all he wants is posts.

[Rutkowski]

Even if Hitler hadn't attacked the USSR; he still wouldn't have been able to defeat the Yankees. Hitler did 3 great mistakes during the war.

Mistake 1 - Give Japan free reign to go about as it pleased.
Mistake 2 - The workup to Operation Sea Lion
Mistake 3 - Operation Barbarossa

Had Japan not attacked the US and had Germany not invaded the USSR they could have focused on taking what remained of Africa and then negotiate an advantegous peace with the UK, France now being completely out of the question.

The following years would've been spent on making allies with the US and bettering relations with Spain and the UK as well as Japan; preparing for the invasion of the USSR. While the Soviet Union's greatest ally was indeed their homeland; a combined offensive from the west by Germany, Italy, Spain, Finland, the US, as well as possibly the UK while Japan and the US also attacked from the east would've thrown the USSR into shambles and ended the war within at most four or five years.

And ****; I'm not even counting nukes.

However, as it was, Hitler was an insane madman who could do nothing but hold speeches and that is what brought him to his end.

[Slayzer]

Even if Hitler hadn't attacked the USSR; he still wouldn't have been able to defeat the Yankees. Hitler did 3 great mistakes during the war.

Mistake 1 - Give Japan free reign to go about as it pleased.
Mistake 2 - The workup to Operation Sea Lion
Mistake 3 - Operation Barbarossa

Had Japan not attacked the US and had Germany not invaded the USSR they could have focused on taking what remained of Africa and then negotiate an advantegous peace with the UK, France now being completely out of the question.

The following years would've been spent on making allies with the US and bettering relations with Spain and the UK as well as Japan; preparing for the invasion of the USSR. While the Soviet Union's greatest ally was indeed their homeland; a combined offensive from the west by Germany, Italy, Spain, Finland, the US, as well as possibly the UK while Japan and the US also attacked from the east would've thrown the USSR into shambles and ended the war within at most four or five years.

And ****; I'm not even counting nukes.

However, as it was, Hitler was an insane madman who could do nothing but hold speeches and that is what brought him to his end.

Ok most of this u wrote is correct, but I don't agree that Hitler would make peace with UK and US.
1) UK was Russia ally in the WW1
2) US wasn't as strong as it is now
3)If he make so many allies than he doesn't have what to conquer

[Rutkowski]

Ok most of this u wrote is correct, but I don't agree that Hitler would make peace with UK and US.
1) UK was Russia ally in the WW1
But they hated eachother. Churchill, the self-centered stubborn ******* he was, refused to co-operate with the USSR until the US got involved and even then he limited the UK help as much as he could. Also, Hitler greatly admired the UK. His goal with Operation Sea Lion was to create an Anglo-Germanic Aryan Empire; he wanted London to be the Empire's second capital.

2) US wasn't as strong as it is now
It was still the second strongest world power in the world; just after the USSR.

3)If he make so many allies than he doesn't have what to conquer
He would still have all of the Soviet Union. Do not underestimate that land area. If he had those; he would have enough resources to wage war on practically every country on earth at once.

[XFIRE]

It was still the second strongest world power in the world; just after the USSR.
Negative.

Just think that russians didn't have such marine.. cruisers, aircrafts, harbors, battle stations or even so much nuclear power as the americans.

Their only atu was their own land. And, they were unbeatable there..

[Rutkowski]

They instead had modern weaponry, armor, industry, a huge population, the lack of any real dissent during wartime, a sizeable navy(but yes, not as strong as the US')and experienced commanders within all the fields of warfare. The USSR's biggest weakness was it's leader and the way he tended to **** up military and diplomatic efforts.

[kranz]

"They instead had modern weaponry, armor, industry, a huge population, the lack of any real dissent during wartime, a sizeable navy(but yes, not as strong as the US')and experienced commanders within all the fields of warfare"-yeah, sure. What kind of weaponry you call modern ?They just massed everything.It's like Pz VI Tiger vs Sherman tank. One Sherman was useless-at least four could cope with one Tiger. Like T-34-total rubish until 1943 when they finally managed to remove most of malfunctions.But then Pz V Panther appeared which outrun T-34. Industry-it remembered the Revolution and "monarchy" times. It is often said that soviets were pioniers in making tanks because they first use the diesel engine-another rubish-their industry(petrol one)was so backward that they couldn't make gasoline of proper quality so they had to use diesel oil which was easier to produce.Huge population-so what?India has now the biggest population(imo)-is it "better" than USA? Experienced commanders where mostly killed during the "cleaning times" when Stalin killed Tuchacevski. Up to 1943-4 soviets sucked at tactics and strategy. Only one(or none)tank in platoon had a radio and they had to communicate using....FLAGS. Churchil hated communists that's why he "didn't cooperate with them"But unfortunately he changed his mind....and gave Poland to Stalin with help of usa.

[OMGBergrush]

kranz are you polish?

[kranz]

yes, do u want to call me "anti-serbian scum" once again?

[Rutkowski]

-yeah, sure. What kind of weaponry you call modern ?
Here's a short list of modern stuff(or stuff that may have been a bit aged but were still quite effective):
T-34, KV-1, PPSCH-41, Mosin Nagant, SVT-40, BT Tanks, IS series(later on), Degytarev, TT-33, most of their airforce, most of their navy.

Really, their biggest disadvantage was lack of organization and an improper leader.

They just massed everything.
Not really. Sure, they did a lot in the beginning but most do when they're at a disadvantage. Germany did too. The US did too. Japan did too. Italy did too. France and Poland didn't. Why? Because they knew they were ****ed and instead of massing decided to flee instead.

It's like Pz VI Tiger vs Sherman tank. One Sherman was useless-at least four could cope with one Tiger.
Can't disagree with that; the Shermans were designed to be cheap and to be massed.

Like T-34-total rubish until 1943 when they finally managed to remove most of malfunctions.
That's actually quite wrong. The T-34, which indeed lacked radio in the beginning, was quite effective. Hard to destroy, relatively fast, strong weaponry, easy to use, and easy to repair was the best combination at the time and until the end of the war. The reason they were massed was because they, well, needed to stall the German offensive AND because they were cheap and quick as hell to produce.

But then Pz V Panther appeared which outrun T-34.
Yes, the Panther was good by itself. However, logistics reduced it's efforts greatly. Slow to construct and heavy on fuel requirements as well as being hard to repair made it far less effective than most T-34 when looking at more than just combat and instead looking at the grand strategy.

Industry-it remembered the Revolution and "monarchy" times. It is often said that soviets were pioniers in making tanks because they first use the diesel engine-another rubish-their industry(petrol one)was so backward that they couldn't make gasoline of proper quality so they had to use diesel oil which was easier to produce.
And how is that a bad thing? You should use the one that's easy to produce if it is as good, or at least not deterring, as the other availability.

Huge population-so what?India has now the biggest population(imo)-is it "better" than USA?
No, but India isn't run by an administration that focused purely on the war. The mobilization of the Soviets was awe-strucking indeed.

And China still got a larger population. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

Experienced commanders where mostly killed during the "cleaning times" when Stalin killed Tuchacevski.
That is true, yes, but they still had Kruchev, Zhukov, and other effective commanders that were in some ways leading in their respective fields.

Up to 1943-4 soviets sucked at tactics and strategy.
Once again, impaired by Stalin's "No Step Back" order(one that Hitler later took to use too; something that proved to be devestating for the Germans' attempts to hold off the Soviets so they could negotiate peace with the Allies).

Only one(or none)tank in platoon had a radio and they had to communicate using....FLAGS.
Adressed above.

Churchil hated communists that's why he "didn't cooperate with them"
And as such helped cause the death of millions of civilians as the war effort grew. That's not a good thing, you know?

But unfortunately he changed his mind....and gave Poland to Stalin with help of usa.
Unfortunately? Way to be a short-sighted fool.

And you can blame Poland's fall to the Soviets partly to Churchill even before the Yalta conference. Had Britain and the US launched an seaborne invasion close to Danzig in late '42 or early '43 and then continued south; they would not only cut off the majority of the Germany army and starved them to death or surrender but they could had been able to take Berlin within a matter of months.

[kranz]

Yeah, ok.I can agree that the list you gave is correct when it comes to smth "new".T-34 was hard to handle, small-only 4 person crew made one guy do 2 things.(don't remember which post). Of course it had many advantages i.e. "round" tower, powerful gun, special tracks, light engine, but-it's like having a Ferrari without a gearbox. Germans also had great equipment-the list would be at least 2 times longer. "Because they knew they were ****ed and instead of massing decided to flee instead." Are u lol? So maybe we should discuss Sweden attitude to war? Both countries fought hard before they surrendered(maybe france not as "hard" as Poland but they didn't flee).Back to T-34-fast? only 2 km/h faster than Pz 3.But it was Pz 3 to set the record(can check the exact numer for next time). Strong weaponry?Do u mean L-11 or F-34 or S-53? Of course I agree that 76mm is better than 37 and 50mm but without good optics they just sucked(hard).Agree that it was easy to use-but T-34 driver was always stinking because he was always tired. The gearbox was rubish. T-34 couldn't cooperate with infantry because on gear two it was too slow for them and on gear 3 he was too fast-but there was no gear between, and if he slowed down on 3rd the RPM were to little and u can imagine what happened. Panther now-of course if you compare the whole process of making and fighting T-34 was "better" but I meant one tank compared to one T-34.Imagine being attacked on 2 fronts, being air-raided every night.But the L/70 kicked asses.You produce tanks that will be easy to use for your soldiers and in your country-that's obvious.The moblization in Soviets was like the Warsaw Uprising in 1944(not to be confused with jewish uprising in ghetto in 1943).You have two hands so u get a gun.Oh-but we only had a limited numer of guns so the rest won't get one.And join your friends.It was sending people for sure death.Look for figures-how many red army soldiers were taken into captivity.When Mikolajczyk was in London they told him:"stfu, we don't care of Poland, soviets will take care of your civilians and AK(partisans, opposed to AL).Just don't worry-they arent so bad"50 years of communism appeared ruinous to Poland.British probably killed general Sikorsky near Gibraltar.Do u know who gen.Sosabowski was? He probably worked in a warehouse after the war because they told that he didn't do anything "great". Victor Suvorov wrote two books recently-the translation from polish is smth like this: The shadow of victory, and I take back my words.They both treat about Zhukov.Read them.I know that Suvorov is controversial but still he gives a few facts. Patton could take Berlin faster than Koniev and Zhukov.The resistance on the western front was far more weaker than in eastern.But Stalin, when asked by Roosevelt, what is the main point of the operation said:"Prague of course, Berlin isn't important for us".And stupid Roosevelt belived him.

[Rutkowski]

Yeah, ok.I can agree that the list you gave is correct when it comes to smth "new".T-34 was hard to handle,
Is that how conscripts with only a few hours training were able to use the tank with reasonable skill?

small-only 4 person crew made one guy do 2 things.(don't remember which post).
That was actually an advantage since Russia lacked experienced crew for the first half of their war.

Of course it had many advantages i.e. "round" tower, powerful gun, special tracks, light engine, but-it's like having a Ferrari without a gearbox.
In what way?

Germans also had great equipment-the list would be at least 2 times longer.
I know, I never said otherwise. However, you said that the Soviet Union warmachine was by large and large outdated; something it clearly wasn't.

"Because they knew they were ****ed and instead of massing decided to flee instead." Are u lol? So maybe we should discuss Sweden attitude to war? Both countries fought hard before they surrendered(maybe france not as "hard" as Poland but they didn't flee).
Just FYI; I'm half German and a quarter Polish, there is no national bias here. I'm quite ashamed of how Sweden acted during the war; I do not deny they helped the Nazis.

I also never said that the Poles and French fled without a fight. However, they did flee their respective countries before they had the chance to organize a proper massed defence. That was my point. I know the Poles fought fierce, extremely fierce, but they were also smart enough to know when they were ****ed and did the right thing; retreat to fight another day.

Back to T-34-fast? only 2 km/h faster than Pz 3.But it was Pz 3 to set the record(can check the exact numer for next time).
Look up the word "relatively" that I used to preceed the word "fast."

Strong weaponry?Do u mean L-11 or F-34 or S-53? Of course I agree that 76mm is better than 37 and 50mm but without good optics they just sucked(hard).
Not really. The optics weren't as bad as you make them out to be and their hardiness was good enough for them to be able to use one shot for direction.

Agree that it was easy to use-but T-34 driver was always stinking because he was always tired.
Haha, what? Are you saying that every Soviet T-34 driver were driving only when tired? Not only is that an extremely dumb statement but it's also highly irrelevant as we're discussing the quality of the tank, not the tiredness of the driver.

The gearbox was rubish.
First time I heard of this; source?

T-34 couldn't cooperate with infantry because on gear two it was too slow for them and on gear 3 he was too fast-but there was no gear between, and if he slowed down on 3rd the RPM were to little and u can imagine what happened.
You DO know why the tower was so much in the front of the chassis? That's right, because it were designed to carry troops on top of it.

Panther now-of course if you compare the whole process of making and fighting T-34 was "better" but I meant one tank compared to one T-34.
Except such simulation is useless in war; it's only useful for computer games.

Imagine being attacked on 2 fronts, being air-raided every night.But the L/70 kicked asses.You produce tanks that will be easy to use for your soldiers and in your country-that's obvious.The moblization in Soviets was like the Warsaw Uprising in 1944(not to be confused with jewish uprising in ghetto in 1943).You have two hands so u get a gun.Oh-but we only had a limited numer of guns so the rest won't get one.And join your friends.It was sending people for sure death.Look for figures-how many red army soldiers were taken into captivity.When Mikolajczyk was in London they told him:"stfu, we don't care of Poland, soviets will take care of your civilians and AK(partisans, opposed to AL).Just don't worry-they arent so bad"50 years of communism appeared ruinous to Poland.British probably killed general Sikorsky near Gibraltar.Do u know who gen.Sosabowski was? He probably worked in a warehouse after the war because they told that he didn't do anything "great". Victor Suvorov wrote two books recently-the translation from polish is smth like this: The shadow of victory, and I take back my words.They both treat about Zhukov.Read them.I know that Suvorov is controversial but still he gives a few facts. Patton could take Berlin faster than Koniev and Zhukov.The resistance on the western front was far more weaker than in eastern.But Stalin, when asked by Roosevelt, what is the main point of the operation said:"Prague of course, Berlin isn't important for us".And stupid Roosevelt belived him.
Lots of irrelevant rabble, learn to use paragraphs.

Also, that last part is bull****. They had agreed on giving Berlin to the Russians because the Allies were overstretched with their supply lines and while they were able to mount a sizeable offensive they would have suffered enormous losses in the process.

[XFIRE]

I should be most ashamed of my country's attitude..

We changed parts.. switched weapons.. in a critical moment..

Romania getting on Allies' side, was one of the greatest, if not even the greatest theater bangs in WW2.

With germans losing their east defensive system (Romania), a great fortress and barrier to Russia, place where they could plant battle stations and assault the russians continously, it was like losing a finger from a hand..

[Rutkowski]

Well, to be fair, Germany was boned far beyond that; you just sped up the process a month or two. =)

[Slayzer]

I should be most ashamed of my country's attitude..

We changed parts.. switched weapons.. in a critical moment..

Romania getting on Allies' side, was one of the greatest, if not even the greatest theater bangs in WW2.

With germans losing their east defensive system (Romania), a great fortress and barrier to Russia, place where they could plant battle stations and assault the russians continously, it was like losing a finger from a hand..

I am not so sure that Romania was such a vital defensive system and barrier to Russia as Romania was neutral during the most of WW2....

[XFIRE]

I am not so sure that Romania was such a vital defensive system and barrier to Russia as Romania was neutral during the most of WW2....

Hello?..

Excuse me, but NEUTRAL?

That's why we lost 2 milion soldiers, and our marshal, general and prime-minister Antonescu? He wanted to fight along with the germans, but russians killed him.

Let me explain you:

ROMANIA, under King Michael and the military government of Ion Antonescu, adhered to the Tripartite Pact on November 23, 1940.

Romania entered the First World War in 1916 on the Allied side, but called for peace when its ally, the Russian Empire, collapsed in November 1917. Romania became a German vassal under the Treaty of Bucharest, but when Germany itself suffered defeat in the West, the Treaty of Bucharest was voided. Romania then saw its borders greatly enlarged in the peace treaties imposed on Germany and her allies.

Following the blueprints of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, the Soviet Union and Germany exploited the fall of France to revise the terms of those peace treaties, reducing Romania in size. On June 28, 1940, the Soviet Union occupied and annexed Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and Hertza County. Germany forced Romania to cede Northern Transylvania to Hungary on August 30, 1940 in the second Vienna Award. Germany also forced Romania to give up Southern Dobruja to Bulgaria on September 5, 1940.

In an effort to please Hitler and obtain German protection, King Carol II appointed the General Ion Antonescu Prime Minister on September 6, 1940. Two days later, Antonescu forced the king to abdicate, installed the king's young son Michael on the throne, and declared himself Conducător (Leader) with dictatorial powers.

German troops entered the country on 1941, and used it as a base for its invasions of both Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. Romania was also a key supplier of resources, especially oil and grain.

Romania joined Germany in invading the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941. Not only was Romania a base for the invasion, the country contributed nearly 300,000 troops - more than any other minor Axis power - to the war against the Soviet Union. German and Romanian troops quickly overran Moldova, which was again incorporated into Romania. Romania fought together with the German Army for the control of the Crimea Peninsula and Romanian Armies 3 and 4 were involved even in the battle of Stalingrad.

After the Soviets turned back the German invasion and pushed the front line into Romania, Romania switched to the Allied side on August 23, 1944.

Operation Barbarossa, which led to our failure:

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/8740/82530001dv9.jpg

[OMGBergrush]

yes, do u want to call me "anti-serbian scum" once again?

it just seemed obvious considering the amount of hate you possess for the soviet union

[Slayzer]

it just seemed obvious considering the amount of hate you possess for the soviet union

If someone should hate Soviet union than it shall be Serbia. Our government joined Hitler but some ppl who were loyal to communist's party(which was broght from Russia to our country) were against our government and there were many ppl that didn't believe that Hitler will just pass through our country and that he won't attack us so they organized demonstrations against our government and 3 days(or something like that) our capitol was bombarded by Germans.
Unfortunately most of ppl who live today in Serbia think's that we were saved by Russia and so on...(which is true) but they forget the fact that we started a war because of Russia.

[Slayzer]

Hello?..

Excuse me, but NEUTRAL?

That's why we lost 2 milion soldiers, and our marshal, general and prime-minister Antonescu? He wanted to fight along with the germans, but russians killed him.

Let me explain you:

ROMANIA, under King Michael and the military government of Ion Antonescu, adhered to the Tripartite Pact on November 23, 1940.

Romania entered the First World War in 1916 on the Allied side, but called for peace when its ally, the Russian Empire, collapsed in November 1917. Romania became a German vassal under the Treaty of Bucharest, but when Germany itself suffered defeat in the West, the Treaty of Bucharest was voided. Romania then saw its borders greatly enlarged in the peace treaties imposed on Germany and her allies.

Following the blueprints of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, the Soviet Union and Germany exploited the fall of France to revise the terms of those peace treaties, reducing Romania in size. On June 28, 1940, the Soviet Union occupied and annexed Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and Hertza County. Germany forced Romania to cede Northern Transylvania to Hungary on August 30, 1940 in the second Vienna Award. Germany also forced Romania to give up Southern Dobruja to Bulgaria on September 5, 1940.

In an effort to please Hitler and obtain German protection, King Carol II appointed the General Ion Antonescu Prime Minister on September 6, 1940. Two days later, Antonescu forced the king to abdicate, installed the king's young son Michael on the throne, and declared himself Conducător (Leader) with dictatorial powers.

German troops entered the country on 1941, and used it as a base for its invasions of both Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. Romania was also a key supplier of resources, especially oil and grain.

Romania joined Germany in invading the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941. Not only was Romania a base for the invasion, the country contributed nearly 300,000 troops - more than any other minor Axis power - to the war against the Soviet Union. German and Romanian troops quickly overran Moldova, which was again incorporated into Romania. Romania fought together with the German Army for the control of the Crimea Peninsula and Romanian Armies 3 and 4 were involved even in the battle of Stalingrad.

After the Soviets turned back the German invasion and pushed the front line into Romania, Romania switched to the Allied side on August 23, 1944.

Operation Barbarossa, which led to our failure:

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/8740/82530001dv9.jpg

I don't know, I am not informed about Romanian's who fought in Barbarosa, I am talking about Romanians at Balkans, u have never fought with Serbians before Germans conquered Yugoslavia and Greece so in that part of the war Romania was neutral...
and pls don't mention WW1 coz if I write something about it I think that u will find it too long to read....

[Rutkowski]

That's called civil disobedience and I can't fault anyone for wanting to bring down a regime that supported nazism.

In fact, I kinda fault everyone that didn't without a good reason.

I don't know, I am not informed about Romanian's who fought in Barbarosa, I am talking about Romanians at Balkans, u have never fought with Serbians before Germans conquered Yugoslavia and Greece so in that part of the war Romania was neutral...
Oh, they fought Russia alright. They were at Stalingrad and was amongst the first troops to turn tail and run(can't blame them though; they were part of a failed operation) when the Russians began the encirclement outside the ruined city.

[XFIRE]

and pls don't mention WW1 coz if I write something about it I think that u will find it too long to read....

Nothing about WW1 was mentioned in my post..

[Slayzer]

Romania entered the First World War in 1916 on the Allied side, but called for peace when its ally, the Russian Empire, collapsed in November 1917. Romania became a German vassal under the Treaty of Bucharest, but when Germany itself suffered defeat in the West, the Treaty of Bucharest was voided. Romania then saw its borders greatly enlarged in the peace treaties imposed on Germany and her allies.

[Slayzer]

I think that u know why did WW1 start and which country was first attacked....

[XFIRE]

I think that u know why did WW1 start and which country was first attacked....

I don't know why you're still insisting on WW1 subject on the WW2 thread.

And yes, everyone knows why WW1 started..

It started because on, June 28, 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, was assasinated by Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb citizen of Austria-Hungary and member of the Black Hand.

[kranz]

#Rutkowski
"That was actually an advantage since Russia lacked experienced crew for the first half of their war." - I'm afraid you confused here the cause and the effect. It was small so 5 crewmaen couldn't get there.It's not the problem of not having crew-compare KV-2. In what way T-34 sucked-it had many advantages but minor mistakes made by the constructors and unexperienced crew who were given a tank hard to drive made loses disastrous. Yeah-ok-maybe I made some mistake in spelling or u just misunderstood me-soviet's tactics were outdated because of the fact their generals and officers haven't seen a modern war(or a new type of war).Of course they did a lot of progress in tanks evolution but:air-forces were poor, navy-same.Infantry-bad equiped.I don't get your point when u talk about "relatively" and so on.Will back to this. Optics-why the heck they were modified so often?If you compared them with german ones you would understand.Of course tank is big enought to hit him-but why germans were able to hit soviet tanks from far larger distances?And it's not only the lenght of barrel that counts here.I said that driving T-34 made the driver become tired.Have you ever seen the inside of the tank?Do you know what were the two levers used for?Example:we have car.Brand doesn't matter.I'm sitting for 20 minutes doing nothing and you run the fastes you can.Then we both make the dunno the correct name-"elk test" maybe?Who will get better results?When I wrote "gearbox is a rubish" I meant the fact that I mentioned before-the constructors designed it but had no idea what aims will be given to the tank.Do you have a driving license?If you do u probably know that TIR's (heavy transport cars)have smth like additional gears.Buses too.So if you have 8 normal gears you also have 8 add. called half-gears to adjust RPM to a situation on road and to your weight. If T-34 couldn't operate correctly with infantry because it was too slow or too fast that means that smth is wrong with the gearbox. Source:R.Michulec, M.Zientarzewski T-34 Mityczna bron(T-34 A mythical weapon or smth like this).Two volumes-worth buying-if it was translated into your language of course."You DO know why the tower was so much in the front of the chassis? That's right, because it were designed to carry troops on top of it."Actually I haven't heard that.But I'll tell you one thing-when I see a photo of T-34 engine compartment I realise that it took about half of the tank's lenght-so it was impossible to move the tower back.If you want I can scan it and post.Just don't teach me pls-I'm not in school to use "paragraphs".And don't have time to find out how to use nice quotations.NVM.Ok-that what you called "Lots of irrelevant rabble" was based on a collection of paper sheets that people call book.And believe me-I've read them, not only the covers.I encourage you to read The Last 100 days by John Tolland-you will understand how Stalin fooled Allies and many more.Antony Beevor-Berlin-the last battle.You should end up with Svenska Dagbladet and start reading about the facts.
#Berg yeap, I hate soviets and communism.

[Rutkowski]

Sorry, not gonna respond to that as it's almost unreadable because you're not smart enough to learn to use paragraphs.

[kranz]

yeap, as you wish, but I'm afraid that it was lack of arguments instead of my unability to create proper paragraphs that "silenced" you.

[Rutkowski]

No, it was in fact because you wrote as someone fresh out of pre-school.

[kranz]

fully agree-crushing arguments and pre-school style-that's me!

[Slayzer]

I don't know why you're still insisting on WW1 subject on the WW2 thread.

And yes, everyone knows why WW1 started..

It started because on, June 28, 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, was assasinated by Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb citizen of Austria-Hungary and member of the Black Hand.

Well that's not the main reason why it started because Bosnia was anexed by Austria and Austria just needed a good reason to start a war with Yugoslavia.
Our army crushed them on mountain Cer but we couldn't against Germans, Austro-Hungarians and Bulgarians alone so our government had to escape to Greece.And Franz Ferdinand wasn't so important part of Austro-Hungarian royal family, they knew that "Young Bosnia"(organization that was made by young Serbians,Croatians and Muslims that were angry at Austria coz they Austria wanted to make them Austrians which they didn't want) is going to try to murder F.F.

[XFIRE]

Franz Ferdinand was the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, how could you say he wasn't important? Killing the king's son?

Let's cut this WW1 thing, we're here to discuss about WW2, if you wanna debate on WW1's side, create a topic..

[Rutkowski]

fully agree-crushing arguments and pre-school style-that's me!
Except with none of the former and all of the latter, yeah.

Seriously, you're a tool. Stop being so full of yourself.

[Slayzer]

That's called civil disobedience and I can't fault anyone for wanting to bring down a regime that supported nazism.

In fact, I kinda fault everyone that didn't without a good reason.


Oh, they fought Russia alright. They were at Stalingrad and was amongst the first troops to turn tail and run(can't blame them though; they were part of a failed operation) when the Russians began the encirclement outside the ruined city.

NO,NO,NO and NO. U didn't understand what I am talking about. Our government didn't wanna join Germans but they had to Hitler was pressing our politicians almost a year to join him. Our king wanted to avoid war and to stay neutral, but Yugoslavia was important because it was military strongest country at Balkans and coz it had a good position, Germans needed railway to transfer resources.
But I can't see why is it good to start a war with enemy u can't defeat just because u don't wanna be like them.
It's better to join Germany than to lose 70% of ur population and most of our high educated people were killed or left the country so after the WW2 comunists take over leadership of our country. And just look at what happened to USSR and u will realise how bad it was.
Oh just one more thing, Stalin was worse than Hitler, to kill so many your own ppl just because they didn't support u it is madness. We also had such a dictator after WW2 Tito.

[Slayzer]

Franz Ferdinand was the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, how could you say he wasn't important? Killing the king's son?

Let's cut this WW1 thing, we're here to discuss about WW2, if you wanna debate on WW1's side, create a topic..

He was just formally king's son he wasn't going to take a throne after king was dead, because he was the most hated royal member.... I really don't know if u have that in ur history books.(and I see no reason why should u have because that doesn't have any connection with ur history)
Coz the important thing is that Yugoslavia wasn't prepared for war and most ppl here were against Franz Ferdinand murder.
Ok let's stop with WW1, however...

[Rutkowski]

But I can't see why is it good to start a war with enemy u can't defeat just because u don't wanna be like them.
Due to principle. I regret that Sweden didn't join the Allies even though we would've gotten our asses handed to us.
It's better to join Germany than to lose 70% of ur population and most of our high educated people were killed or left the country so after the WW2 comunists take over leadership of our country. And just look at what happened to USSR and u will realise how bad it was.
And instead you helped bolstering a terror regime never seen before or after.

Oh just one more thing, Stalin was worse than Hitler, to kill so many your own ppl just because they didn't support u it is madness. We also had such a dictator after WW2 Tito.
Hitler and Stalin were horrible in such different ways that you can't measure it by number of casualties or reasons or excuses.

[Slayzer]

Due to principle. I regret that Sweden didn't join the Allies even though we would've gotten our asses handed to us.

And instead you helped bolstering a terror regime never seen before or after.


Hitler and Stalin were horrible in such different ways that you can't measure it by number of casualties or reasons or excuses.

Hmmm Serbia was on alliance side! And it isn't nice to talk about that u can't even imagine which horrible things happened to our ppl.

[DivLo]

NO,NO,NO and NO. U didn't understand what I am talking about. Our government didn't wanna join Germans but they had to Hitler was pressing our politicians almost a year to join him. Our king wanted to avoid war and to stay neutral, but Yugoslavia was important because it was military strongest country at Balkans and coz it had a good position, Germans needed railway to transfer resources.
But I can't see why is it good to start a war with enemy u can't defeat just because u don't wanna be like them.
It's better to join Germany than to lose 70% of ur population and most of our high educated people were killed or left the country so after the WW2 comunists take over leadership of our country. And just look at what happened to USSR and u will realise how bad it was.
Oh just one more thing, Stalin was worse than Hitler, to kill so many your own ppl just because they didn't support u it is madness. We also had such a dictator after WW2 Tito.

Hm... I dont think so. If everyone joined Germany, what would've happend? You think he loved Serbs or Croats or whoever? Baf, we would all be slaves, sooner or later. I just cant realize how can anyone admire Hitler ( not talking to Slyzer, talking generally). You cant choose wheter you wanna be born as a Jew, Christian, etc. And you surely dont deserve to die just because some lunatic thinks you dont belong to their "higher rase".

[Slayzer]

Hm... I dont think so. If everyone joined Germany, what would've happend? You think he loved Serbs or Croats or whoever? Baf, we would all be slaves, sooner or later. I just cant realize how can anyone admire Hitler ( not talking to Slyzer, talking generally). You cant choose wheter you wanna be born as a Jew, Christian, etc. And you surely dont deserve to die just because some lunatic thinks you dont belong to their "higher rase".

Do you really think that Hitler didn't have better buissines than to invade Yugoslavia and to kill our ppl.If Yugoslavia didn't join alliance Germans would attack USSR not Yugoslavia, coz Germany needed ally on the Balkans to fight against Greece because Albania and Italy couldn't defeat Greece so easily.
And I really can't realize why do u think that we would be slaves??? Romanians were not slaves,Italians were not slaves,why should Serbs or Croatians be slaves that just a big lie that we ppl in Yugoslavia were told by politicians so we could join a war on ally side.
And just to announce that demonstrations in Belgrade against Hitler were organized by UK government.

[XFIRE]

And you surely dont deserve to die just because some lunatic thinks you dont belong to their "higher rase".

Hmm.. not only 'higher rase'.. that's only the cover of his real reasons..

Maybe you don't know, but Hitler's plan had some religious aspects too.. like punishing the jews (the damned race, as considered nowadays) for being responsible for Jesus' death, as well as getting money unfair from international business and being behind many assasinations of epical people in different countries, from all around world (for example, in Romania, killing Mihai Eminescu, greatest romanian poet and writer, was their move, as he threatened some jew people from romanian leader crew, at that time, releasing offensives upon jews and criticizing them; that's a very long story, maybe I will discuss it another time and in another thread).

The inferior races in Hitler's vision were, mainly, slavons and gipsies.

[TeamGeist]

This is total new to me... what else will I find out about WW2 ...

[Slayzer]

Hmm.. not only 'higher rase'.. that's only the cover of his real reasons..

Maybe you don't know, but Hitler's plan had some religious aspects too.. like punishing the jews (the damned race, as considered nowadays) for being responsible for Jesus' death, as well as getting money unfair from international business and being behind many assasinations of epical people in different countries, from all around world (for example, in Romania, killing Mihai Eminescu, greatest romanian poet and writer, was their move, as he threatened some jew people from romanian leader crew, at that time, releasing offensives upon jews and criticizing them; that's a very long story, maybe I will discuss it another time and in another thread).

The inferior races in Hitler's vision were, mainly, slavons and gipsies.

:clap::clap::clap: That's why I think he was crazy!

[-.Unkut.-]

Hmm i know pretty much about ww2.
But every time i hear the word: Auschwitz I start to cry :( I'm really sad about it.

[kranz]

yeap, trully a sad place but not only germans were bad guys there

[Slayzer]

U can't blame German people for that! Most of them were against war. In my grandfather's home lived one German solider who was very polite to him even if my grandfather was younger.