Human really the weakest?

[Terrorboy]

Look what I found on main WCG site.....shock:eek: ?

[MaN-O-WaR]

Terrorboy napisał(a)
Look what I found on main WCG site.....shock:eek: ? U didnt saw that it was WCG 2003/04 and rifles had almost 600 HP in that days :p

[Terrorboy]

At WCG 2004 rifles had 520 HP as I remember correctly....didnt play in 2003 (it was ROC competition), but I heard it was 'human's time'. But 2004 was TFT, and this score is from 2003 and 2004 year together, so also TFT, that's why I think 'human weakness' is myth and they are underestimate race.....and BTW....didnt NE imbalanced in 2004? Look, from that time they took nerf and still ppl call them 'imba race';)

[Palec]

Human is good race,like ToD said,but its only strong in laddering or not high level play.In big lan tournaments,human is probably the weakest race.

[Terrorboy]

Well, WCG isn't lan tournament....? Even Grubby said about month ago that human definitely isn't the weakest race of TFT....btw he loss to Sky in 1st round WCG;)

[Palec]

Originally posted by Terrorboy
Well, WCG isn't lan tournament....? Even Grubby said about month ago that human definitely isn't the weakest race of TFT....btw he loss to Sky in 1st round WCG;)
Btw grubby stats vs hum is about 90%... and sky,ToD isnt good example.Grubby also said that the worst human strat vs orc is gryphons in any shape.The better strat to counter is am/bm/mass casters.We,as human players know that going t3 vs orc (very good orc) without expo is almost suicide.
And one more thing,it can be possible on big maps like GW,but its only illusion,cause orc has Tc with aura.So he can easily exp,harras,and still have more popullation,than human.Its not a problem with all units fast speed cause of aura.Also in the fight,when you lost the battle you cant run other way than Tp,because of speed scrol,aura from Tc,purge units or ensare them.
So my best matchup vs Orc is on maps like Lt,Echo etc.When i can Fe.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah i could agree , but if orc does rush u cant expect to win with HU unless he is noob , but still one thing besides the fact that orc owns HU , HU owns NE and UD , ORC cant beat UD ( unless he gets blodlust verry fast and Spirit Walkers ) and NE will very easy defeat ORC so HU may not beat orc but it has better chances to beat the other races thus human is the best race on W3

[Palec]

Try to go Shaman with bloodlust vs destro,you will see what will happend:D

[Costin_Razvan]

Well i suck at orc but ill tell u this that u can beat UD with orc depends on skill and startegy and for destroyers mass wind riders :D

[Terrorboy]

BTW this WCG was also very good for human players....rank 1 and 4; nice. What is really funny 17 NE left groups, and only one qualitify to top4^^

[Costin_Razvan]

Originally posted by Terrorboy
BTW this WCG was also very good for human players....rank 1 and 4; nice. What is really funny 17 NE left groups, and only one qualitify to top4^^
Yeah , well nowadays NE lose to HU , Sky proved that in the final , the only problem for HU is now orc , like Palec said its immposible to beat a verry good orc player without expo .

[Terrorboy]

I think orc and mirror is the easiest matchup for humans actually.

PS. Palec said it impossible go mass air vs orc and win without expo, if u read carefully;)

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh come on lets face it what chances do u have with HU against a verry good orc player without expo ?

[Terrorboy]

Well it's possible....like Sky vs Grubby for example...or by destroying burrows with defended foots....why not? IMO humans too much depends on expansions instead of searching non-cookie cutter tactics....like 'Insomnia style' vs UD;)

[Costin_Razvan]

Yep your right here , most HU players cant do without expo ( neither can I ) as for SKy he uses rush so he doesnt need and as for footies to destroy burrows fs has chain for that :D and can u give a good orc tactic cause i just suck :(

[Tito]

human is weakest ?
Any time 1v1 i will play human u orc ok ?

[MaN-O-WaR]

O_o_O napisał(a)
human is weakest ?
Any time 1v1 i will play human u orc ok ? So u play HUM and 4k^Fov will play orc ok?
Dude its pointless, coz u can be higher skilled...... My point is that in maps when HUM cant make FE he is ****ed up, coz he must kill one of orcs heroes. W/o expo its hard to beat orc...

[Terrorboy]

What about mass summons/casters? Actually I won most of my games vs orc with this tactic. Expo is really not necessary. Just harras/creep.

[Palec]

Originally posted by O_o_O
human is weakest ?
Any time 1v1 i will play human u orc ok ?
Man we are talking about gameing on some level.I really like hum vs orc matchup.What i am saying is human has some problems with good orcs.Watch the replay 4k.Grubby vs Tod in Wcg about third place,map TM.Grubby was the shadow of ToD,he scouted,harrased and controled whole game.Tod went mass summons/casters,Grub havent fall in routine and he went mass spirit walkers.Then what can human do vs orc when he cant slow orcs units and any summons he will make will be free expo?
But human isnt the weakest on map when he can go Fe and i could say that on this map human is Imbalanced:p

[Trooper]

on 1.20 human is the weakest ....

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah realy ? HU owns these days , NE get shamshed by tower rush, UD have no chance ( unless he gets destroyers ) the only problem is orc where no matter what u do u cant win without casters so stop saying human sucks cause it rulz :)

[Palec]

Originally posted by Costin_Razvan
UD have no chance ( unless he gets destroyers )

human has a chance unless und gets destroyers...

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah UD is useless without destroyers , but there is a way to get them mass gyros with upgraded flak canons and rifleman thats it for UD now for NE well a NE player cant beat HU no matter what he does it comes down to the players here is a replay where i win vs a noob NE

[sase]

Sky beated grubby ...... Human is not weak as u think so ..
If u dont know how to control him that is your problem ....

[Palec]

Originally posted by sase
Sky beated grubby ...... Human is not weak as u think so ..
If u dont know how to control him that is your problem ....
MAn show me your replay by human.If you havent read this thread from the begining,dont post your opinion.Sky would own you in 10 minutes,every map,every matchup.Also in situation when you can say:Its imbalance,like playing mass hunts vs mortars with shards.Cause sKy isnt good example.

[Antizyclon]

Cause sKy isnt good example.

I think u havent watch all replays from Sky ( against UD in WCG 2005). He proved that u can play with HU at high lvl.

[Palec]

Trust me,i have watched all replays from Wcg(group stage,quarter finals,semi and final)not only human players.Besides we are talking about us,average human players.Thats why Sky isnt good example.
My point is that,when i play vs 70% orc on North,its so hard to win by hum,you have to microing as hell with low hp units.During orc use speed scroll,dispell summons and slow.
I am not saying its imposible to win,cause i am doing pretty well on map when is possibility to go Fe.Fortunatelly on ladder u may choose the maps good for hum and play only on 2-3 that arent good.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah but u can beat orc with Hu in a verry simple way get a staff of teleportation get mage and go to his base and use bllizard on his building the use the staff to run

[Tito]

Originally posted by Palec
MAn show me your replay by human.If you havent read this thread from the begining,dont post your opinion.Sky would own you in 10 minutes,every map,every matchup.Also in situation when you can say:Its imbalance,like playing mass hunts vs mortars with shards.Cause sKy isnt good example.

U are telling that sky is better than grubby ?

[Palec]

GoD,I have to work on my english...nobody understands me.
I am not saying Sky is better than Grub,Grubby stats vs humn is aobut 90%.Last time sky was better beating him in Wcg.Imo they are on the same level.
This post that you have quoted was the answer to Sase's post.I think that sKy isnt good example because he is Pro,not average human/players like we are.

[Antizyclon]

My point is that,when i play vs 70% orc on North,its so hard to win by hum,you have to microing as hell with low hp units.During orc use speed scroll,dispell summons and slow.

If u have watched replay Sky vs. Grubby on group stage (WCG2005) then u will agree with me that orcs need time to het dispel, so rush on them base with human like did Sky is good tactic agains orc, this is posible right after teir 2 an getin two arcane fast build. it seem hard to defend base by orc couse thaY AT MOOMEN COULDNT HAVE DISLPEL

p.s. Sorry for my bad english

[Palec]

Originally posted by Antizyclon
If u have watched replay Sky vs. Grubby on group stage (WCG2005) then u will agree with me that orcs need time to het dispel, so rush on them base with human like did Sky is good tactic agains orc, this is posible right after teir 2 an getin two arcane fast build. it seem hard to defend base by orc couse thaY AT MOOMEN COULDNT HAVE DISLPEL

p.s. Sorry for my bad english
Yea i know what are you talking about and I've already won some games using this strat.But lets explain what I understand by "perfect rush"."Perfect rush strategy" is building in order altar/lumber mill/farm/baracks/farm and fast tech.Only with this building order you can have the second hero(beast master) faster than orc.And the "perfect rush" is destroying the "caster building" of orc or surrounding the Tc or destroing some burrows or hurt some grunts and destroy the shop.Then you get back to your base,cause footmens after wave/chain are low hp units.Then you are healing yourself,buy 3 towers,take all peasants from wood(in militia form),2-3 sorceresses and go to orc base to finish him.
This is the perfect rush.But as we know it's hard to do everything "perfect".Thats why Sky isnt good example cause he is IMBA and in that game he was playing on LAN with no delay.The second one,this strat isnt good on maps like Gw(unless its close position),so then you have to face up with "speed scroll,dispell summons and slow":p
P.S. no matter what orc is one of my favourite matchup:)

[Antizyclon]

his is the perfect rush.But as we know it's hard to do everything "perfect".

No one is perfect so and opponent (orc) wouldnt do evruthing perfectly, and of corse that strategy does not work on big (huge) map and it depends on position getting by bigining. I think only disbalance on matches HU vs ORC is ensare, like grubby said that, time when unit/Herois under ensare need to be shorter so i agree with that. For me at midlle game its hardest to fight against orc.

[Palec]

The patch,changed ensare a bit,but i agree with you its too strong.Cause if slow time was reducing,mana cost has been increased,why not changed the ensare lasting time.
Btw,this what should be changed immiediatly is Staff of preservation.Too fast cooldown... and Orb of coruption from undead.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah ensare is a verry powerfull tool for a orcish player but stills low is better

[Ykc]

ok here are some replays of my favorite serbian player 4gl.platoplus-ghost he is hum and always goes MK. just look his style and APM :)

btw he is voted the best serbian W3 player in 05. he won like 57% votes and there were like 10 other ppl to vote... all gr8players from 4gl

ok replay 1

[Ykc]

rep 2 vs Tod like a week ago

[Ykc]

vs insomnia 3days ago

[Ykc]

vs some pro i forgot who he is replay from today...

i think its goo or smthing like that.... enjoy :)


those are mainly mirors but it really shows that human isnt weakest....

btw in game vs insomnia. Inso had score like 21-0 and played vs 4gl.ghost and he lost...

[Ykc]

Originally posted by ey1
vs some pro i forgot who he is replay from today...

i think its goo or smthing like that.... enjoy :)


those are mainly mirors but it really shows that human isnt weakest....

btw in game vs tod. tod had score like 21-0 and played vs 4gl.ghost and he lost... btw grubby has aka Flying-dutchman

[MLoOkO-kdc]

.

[Ykc]

look title... and dont post that **** posts

somethimes its better to stfu than to say anything(remember your post on replay forum mare vs moon) same **** there... question yourself

[Ioana-Stefan]

Guys listen carefully the conclusion is that HU owns no matter the fact , i'm not talking of Sky here ( U can't say a race is good by only one player ) but i'm saying that HU has the best chances to beat any race
Vs NE : use tower rush with AM
Vs Orc : Mage , MK + mass casters and fotties
Vs UD : Finish him before he gets aboms and destro and if he gets get mass gyro with flak canons
Ud has the biigest chance to defeat HU but UD loses very easy to NE and ORC so ill say this HU is the best rase cause it can own most other races preaty easy it's all about tactic

[Ykc]

there is no best race... Human is a race that has many units that can counter almost anything not like my elfs that can win anything with only driads and bears...

[Ioana-Stefan]

Yes your right there Human is the best counter race for all other races , that is why maybe HU owns ;)

[MaN-O-WaR]

Ioana-Stefan napisał(a)
Yes your right there Human is the best counter race for all other races , that is why maybe HU owns ;) But those counters require much better micro from u - take it in mind ;)

[pedropp]

HU have nasty expos vs every race. Thats why they can own every race i guess.


Hu vs. Orc> This is a balanced matchup except for the fact that orc sux at scouting so that they cant find Hu expos easily. So with knights, Griphon, and casters they are just pawned. :P

Hu vs. Ne> Both of them can do hidden expos and Dryad and Bear make a fair fight agains knight, griphon and casters. But human tower rushes in maps like turttle rock are really annoying. If they have a good micro they can OWN noobelves.

Hu vs. Un> with riffeman(lots of them) and casters they can defeat Un with dest. and abbo. in the late game cuz Un expos can be easily destroyed unlike Hu ones. So Un cant make units and regain power after a battle as fast as Hu.

Hu vs Hu> We have to think that at least this one is balanced xD.

Srry for the bad english =)

[Ioana-Stefan]

Originally posted by MaN-O-WaR
But those counters require much better micro from u - take it in mind ;) Yes they do , thats why most noobs play with ORC or UD that dont require that much micro

[Ykc]

@pedropp vs orc: why bad scouting? What about wolfes and even with bm is easy to scout

vs ud: well towers are bad vs ud couse of destros...tey own Towers heavy armor

ve ne: u forgot about fiery dragons:) they own casters + moon tries mass fieris vs human( he loses most of times but if he think that he can win its good strat)

rest of it is nice gj ~_~

[TheDarkWarlock]

im not sure if hum r the weakest race but in some situations hum r realy the hardest
like vs dests the best solution is fly machins- but if u dont controll them good or if enemy got some unti for them- they will die in a sec and so r u

hum can be good race but it is usually more hard than the other races (i hope any 1 understood this sentence :P )

[Shiny]

HU sucks i cant belive u actualy like this race :rolleyes:

[eXiT-n0w]

Yeah , and Sky sux too ... :D
And Insomnia sux ( beaten by Serbian Player :P ) ... :D
And 4K^ToD sux ...

[Shiny]

Hu only is good cause u have many units to counter many strategies thats the only reason

[Palec]

Originally posted by Shiny
HU sucks i cant belive u actualy like this race :rolleyes:
Man what kind of post is that???USE SOME ARGUMENTS.Its easy to tell "hum sucks",explain me one thing then,why human player won the World Cyber Games 2005?There is no bad race,game is pretty balanced.

[Nery]

Originally posted by Shiny
HU sucks i cant belive u actualy like this race :rolleyes:

the only weak here is U!! all races are good.
All races have his strong and weak points, then dont say what u do not know!...

[Ioana_Stefan]

dont bother about him his just pissed off he got ip banned cause of me , just ignore his post , and once and for all HU rulz not because it has the best casters and siege units thats why and its the single race wich has a hero that can regen mana on casters , thats why HU owns tell me if im wrong

[Ioana_Stefan]

oh and yeah game isnt balanced , why that? let me put is this way
HU vs NE use TR but make shure he doesnt use tower rush in the same time happend to me :D and if it gets to a long game he is surely gonna get bears so use sorceress and priests with some breakers to steal spell
vs Orc : build 2 arcane towers at start to stop bm harras then tech to tier 2 fast and get 2 arcane sanctums , for heroes AM and BM and sorc priest footman and if possible 3 or 4 mortars ( they realy help) and remeber to get defend
vs UD 3-4 siege tanks with rockets and rifleman and knights and get 2 priests if he gets necros and destros ,heroes archamage and mk actualy it depends on player skill vs ud
so who owns HU the race wich is the best , if anyone comments than he isnt human

[NoTimeToLoosE]

Originally posted by Palec
Man what kind of post is that???USE SOME ARGUMENTS.Its easy to tell "hum sucks",explain me one thing then,why human player won the World Cyber Games 2005?There is no bad race,game is pretty balanced.

Well I can give you many resanos why Sky's won wcg.

He was really great prepared for this event and made a lot
of hard work also luck helped him too. After WCG Sky's form went down terrbile. You can observe it in his latest games (I mean these after WCG), here I'm posting replays from game Sky vs. rS.Axslav - medium skilled player (but rs clan is very good). We can carefuly say that Axslav pwned Sky in this two games.

Now show me Grubby's games after WCG in 2003 (he won it). There was difficult to find game which he lost, his skill and form was great we can say perfect.

Well I am really surprised and sad of human's win percents on WCG. 43 % is really awesome result. Unfortunately Blizzard won't improve human race becouse he believes in statistic which are simply lying.

Nubers won't show you that game is not ballanced. You must conclude it by yourself. I am advising play Human from time to time and next try other races. And play no with noobs but with skilled players, than i hear "knights imba I win against archers using them".

Some weak sites of humans in my opinnion:

1) Pesants used to defend baze (All races trying to kill pesants - it is simple way of winning becouse it touchs human economy)
2) Footmen life
3) Archmage HP
4) Sawmill and forge (You need to build them separately, generaly human baze's infrastructure is broken)
5) Farm: 6 food
6) Slow mk
7) Paladine on 1lvl (Really suxx)
8) Riflemen HP
9) Slow army
10) Ultraslow tech
11) Spellbreaker damage
12) Expensive exp and many good upgreads allowed since
t3 (look point 10)

For the end I give you some replays: 2 with games Sky and Axslav and two which show that top human players can't do nothing playing against ud.

[T]L[DeaDDoG]

WC3 is THE most balanced game ever and...

(Thats y all noob play UD or Orc which need no micro)

MAN r u mad???NO micro with UD???A ghoul can die such easily!!To play UD u should be skilled(And for all race too)

U R WRONG!!!

[MaN-O-WaR]

T]L[DeaDDoG napisał(a)
MAN r u mad???NO micro with UD???A ghoul can die such easily!!To play UD u should be skilled(And for all race too)

U R WRONG!!! Dude watch this replay first and then shout your mouth k?? I was dominating whole game, many times i pwnd his heroes, i had expo, he didnt and he won so stfu plz

[T]L[DeaDDoG]

I wasnt wrong no race r imba its jus the way u play thats all!!!

[MaN-O-WaR]

T]L[DeaDDoG napisał(a)
I wasnt wrong no race r imba its jus the way u play thats all!!! U even didnt watched replay so stfu plz, k??

[Raphau]

Lol... Weakest? look how he pwned me

[TheDarkWarlock]

Originally posted by MaN-O-WaR
U even didnt watched replay so stfu plz, k??

i saw ur replay
first - u realy did play better than him but yet u loss
why? strategy
-dragons r much better counter for the frost wyvren
- u let him kill ur heroes fast with his coil + nova
- u exp late and in bad place
- u let him make the fight in his place- when he got fast regen and towers
- pal coulded be very useful here
- the abo + dragons + nova kinda rape ur rifles - grifons coulded be much more useful - u had tier 3 any way

yet, u did play good but its also strategy !
hum r usually weak vs undead ONLY couse they cant counter dests good- but in that game he didnt use dests at all!

[MaN-O-WaR]

TheDarkWarlock napisał(a)
- u let him kill ur heroes fast with his coil + nova My AM died coz of lag - he had potion of invulnerability and tp -.-
Btw now im making t3 and pumping dragon hawks for campers :D
Edit: oh and btw UD players r calling HUMans 'campers' - this is just pathetic -__-;

[LoRD]

Humans own hands down!

[Kham.Bloodreign]

HU are not bad but take a ridiculous amount of micro in my opinion.
If you can`t micro well, your footmen get raped all day long. People who play HU and don`t just Tower abuse got my respect.

[Aerensiniac]

Humans are the most difficult to play (basicaly cause they can counter almost any race), but i agree that for someone who can learn the hang of it and come up with strategies for each race and/or situation there will be no problems for him/her. I would even say humans have almost the bigest potence in mid game cause of the shiz load of possible development and techs.

[HeRo-HuNter]

Well just look at my friend, he is noob vs other races, but take a look how he own elfs with humans, omg.......

[MaN-O-WaR]

Well just look at my friend, he is noob vs other races, but take a look how he own elfs with humans, omg.......OMG it depends vs who is he playing...... i dunno if he is good coz i have already started laddering @ north, but i had acc level 24 with 56 wins solo and this guy has level 27 and he needed for it 190 wins so i dont consider him as a good player... The lower the skill of players the higher chances to win has HUM, but @ gosu level NE>HUM, coz that staff in NE shop is ruining whole HUMan micro -.-
Btw im in 99% of situation matched with NE player, who is able to mass bears. In that case u must counter them with mass caster/breaker + mortars and u must agree that in that stage of play its NE who has bigger chances to win the game :p

[HeRo-HuNter]

Mb only in gosu (lvl 40+) maches hum=elf not on others. But just look his machup stats crazy.

Hum vs hum 53%
Hum vs orc 37%
Hum vs ud 30%
hum vs elf 85% (imba:D )

[Fr0STMourn]

i saw ur replay
first - u realy did play better than him but yet u loss
why? strategy
-dragons r much better counter for the frost wyvren
- u let him kill ur heroes fast with his coil + nova
- u exp late and in bad place
- u let him make the fight in his place- when he got fast regen and towers
- pal coulded be very useful here
- the abo + dragons + nova kinda rape ur rifles - grifons coulded be much more useful - u had tier 3 any way

yet, u did play good but its also strategy !
hum r usually weak vs undead ONLY couse they cant counter dests good- but in that game he didnt use dests at all!
Hu cant counter good dests!?:eek: Have you ever heard smth about helicopters or tanks?

[Antizyclon]

Hu cant counter good dests!?:eek: Have you ever heard smth about helicopters or tanks?
Flying michine are good but siege engine i think not so good. Still i think dests are too strong against HU even against orc. U cannot fight them without exp,so there must something to change like reomve more shields point of dests in upcoming patch, like it was changed from 1.19 to 1.20 or before (i am not sure meybe 1.18 to 1.19) or something else need to be changed